Ancient Aliens

Discussion in 'Science and Technology' started by BillJ, Jun 19, 2012.

  1. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Actually, she dismissed what this person perceived because she intended to suggest that SHE should dismiss it as well.

    It's no that American psychologists are not interested in society's influences. It's that a lot of their patients ARE, sometimes to an insane degree (pun slightly intended) and there is often a need to convince the patient to disregard their perceptions of what society thinks, especially since that perception is usually flawed.

    This is because psychologists cannot influence society, nor can they influence or even understand the perceptions of society, and their patients DEFINITELY can't. One of the important lessons learned in psychology is that two people with nearly identical circumstances -- contexts, if you will -- can interpret those circumstances completely differently, with one responding negatively and the other positively. It depends on what aspect of those experiences one internalizes and discards, and THAT is a lot more important overall. So the psychologist (in America anyway) does not seek to understand how society perceives the individual or how the individual should respond, but rather, how the individual FEELS about society, and why, and then try to encourage the individual to seek an alternate interpretation that would lead to more positive feelings.

    I think you are massively overlooking the popularity of psychiatry in America: mentally ill people are not "undesirables" at all, in fact they are quite well recieved by the psychiatric community who considers them to be a valuable pharmaceutical/medical services market. It has gotten to the point where psychiatrists actually seek to diagnose whole ranges of behaviors with typified disorders, not because it's helpful to the patients, but because insurance companies are reluctant to actually cover treatment for "devastated by the loss of his mother" or "Took his wife's death unusually badly." You're more likely to get paid if you diagnose a patient with "Material Adjustment Syndrome" or "Spousal Loss Disorder," especially if you've written indications ahead of time for antidepressants.
     
  2. throwback

    throwback Captain Captain

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    Of course, mentally ill patients are popular with psychiatrists. We don't complain about our treatment because we are desperate for it. And society demands that we take the pills or we won't be accepted.

    When I was a kid, the school I was at demanded of my mother that either I get medicated or they would kick me out of school. I was given three pills a day of an antidepressant for three years.

    After my first visit, I was given Prozac. In a month, I was upped from 20 to 40 milligrams.

    This year, I was upped from 50 to 300 mg of Seroquel in the space of six months. The psychiatrist would have increased my dosage of Clitopram, but couldn't because of FDA regulations.

    Psychiatrists spend 15 minutes with a patient. They don't get to know the patient. And they treat pills as a candy. This country is notorious for over prescribing medications.

    I believe it is possible to treat how society perceives a person by preparing the person. Give them the tools to be able to function within society. Instead, we aren't even given that. We are told, as you so succinctly put it, to dismiss what society perceives of us. My experience with myself and with people who are mentally ill is that dismissing what they believe is detrimental.
     
  3. RAMA

    RAMA Admiral Admiral

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    It ironic though--as I've pointed out before--how often even experts or developers in certain tech fields don't always see the big picture(as some do here on this BB). Its why I admire the visionaries and people who do.
     
  4. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    On the contrary, for alot of people -- especially people with mental illnesses -- disregarding their perception of society's judgement is one of the most important psychological hurdles you can cross. This is most evident in people with body image disorders (some forms of anorexia have this feature) where a person can look at themselves in a mirror and cringe at the harsh judgements they imagine others to be making of them. Borderline personality disorder, as another example, is sometimes characterized by a unquenchable need for gratification and acceptance from others, often as a surrogate for acceptance they feel they did not receive from parents or family members.

    As I said, alot of the thought processes tangled up in certain psychological conditions involves certain memories and ideas that have been internalized and amplified through life experience filters. In those cases, it becomes necessary to internalize the idea that you do NOT truly know what others think about you, whether you think everyone adores you (the narcissists) or everyone is conspiring against you (the paranoids), and even if you happen to guess right, your understanding of their thoughts is at least as imperfect as their understanding of yours.

    That's an important step, because psychotherapy involves a focussed effort to explore one's hidden feelings and motivating drives, force them into the light of day, reinforce positive traits and discard negative ones. This is very difficult to do if your thoughts are focused outwards on "society" or even just the community/family around you; a good psychotherapist would say "Society has a great many problems, I agree. But we're here to talk about YOUR problems. Society will have to wait its turn."
     
  5. throwback

    throwback Captain Captain

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    I disagree with the methodology. I believe that everything is interconnected, and, from my personnel experience, I feel that psychology and psychiatry do more damage than good.

    There is an article on anorexia where the author mentions the effect that society's norms and perceptions have a person's self worth.

    http://www.awpsych.org/index.php/bi...agnosis-dsm-v/99-anorexia-nervosa-and-the-dsm

    This article is closer to what I believe. It acknowledges the effect and raises questions on how patients should be diagnosed and treated. It does not dismiss the effect. The person I was speaking about, you could feel her being deflated and she didn't contribute much to the group after that.

    I was reading an article in BAR. There is a new disease called the Disease to Please. This disease is characterized as, "But according to a new book, an increasing number of people are taking the concept of of niceness to such a degree that it is no longer a benign, admirable character trait. Instead, it is a pathological condition - known by the professionals as 'caretaker personality disorder', or the 'disease to please' - with dire consequences. 'Extreme selflessness is a character trait that can be used to mask a variety of psychological and emotional problems.'" (BAR, Nov/Dec 2012, page 15)

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...w-going-way-help-seriously-damage-health.html

    http://www.drfranklipman.com/disease-to-please/

    http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/The_Disease_to_Please_Self-Created_Stress.html

    I don't understand this trend, but the medical profession is intent on creating new diseases. I agree with the author who first brought this to my attention:

    "This is really too much. At least we can turn to a succinct piece of advice offered by the Bible's uber-giver (and receiver), King Solomon: "Do not withhold good from those who deserve it, when it is in your power to act."" (BAR, Nov/Dec 2012, pg. 15)
     
  6. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I disagree with both your points. As for the “how”; it is precisely because the engineering and architectural designs for the pyramids are no longer accessible that engineers and architects would be the best qualified specialists to “reverse engineer” how it was ‘most likely’ done, or not done, as is the case more often.

    Of course, some dialogue with archeologists and Egyptologists would be useful, but mostly in the negative sense, by eliminating erroneous notions by said archeologists and Egyptologists about the level of technology and/or the presumed mindset the builders may or may not have had. Thus eliminating highly unlikely scenarios such as using copper chisels to cut granite, which is like trying to cut a knife with a stick of butter, instead of the other way around?

    As to “why”; after -and only after- a proper reverse engineering analysis by qualified individuals has been done, would archeologists and Egyptologists be in the best position to judge how an ancient cultures presumed beliefs and religions practices relate to a given monument, or vise versa, or whether those presumptions need to be re-evaluated. All too often in archeology, and especially in Egyptology, the theories and assumptions come first, then the facts are interpreted in light of the theories, instead of the reverse, as it should be.

    Perhaps, but it would be an educated guess, which is more than what an archeologists and Egyptologists could offer on the subject.

    Well, we find ourselves in rare agreement. I never said consultation with engineers would be definitive in and of itself.

    Sorry, but here’s where you’re flat out wrong and misinformed. The fact is no bodies have ever been found in any pyramid that are an original (that is non intrusive) burial! Even sealed pyramids with sealed sarcophagi have proven –when opened by Egyptologists- to be completely empty! Now, I accept that some pyramids may have been tombs, but as for others, I doubt this is the case. In any event, it’s not that archeologists have been unable to determine if they were used for some other purpose, it’s that they have been unwilling to try, or even to consider the possibility.

    I never made any claims about the academic world not being inundated with theoriesas to what those alternate claims might have been! Where did you get this from?

    I was referring to Robert Schoch’s analysis of the water erosion on the Sphinx and its enclosure, indicating that the monument is at least several millennia older than Egyptologist thought. It has nothing to do with the geologic timescales you're thinking of.

    Again I think your wrong on this one. It was, I believe, Sir Norman Lockyer –an astronomer- who first brought astronomy to the attention of archeologists as a means of dating and otherwise interpreting ancient monuments. Archeologists still have not fully embraced archaeo-astronomy, mainly because it suggests much older dates than they had heretofore surmised. The most they will concede is that some ancient monuments are aligned to the sun and/or the moon.

    Bullshit! A few perhaps, but most avoid them like the plague.

    First of all, in the case of Atlantis and other such civilizations, the lack of evidence isn’t overwhelming. Second, as I said; again using Atlantis for an example, the evidence is spread out over many disciplines such as Paleo-Anthropology, Oceanography, and climatology to name just a few, so this is the problem. The lack of evidence seems overwhelming only when archeology alone is consulted.
    As for ancient aliens; this is another matter, I only mentioned it in an attempt to remain somewhat on topic.

    It may seem that way due to my attempt at brevity, but not really. But what empirical data do archeologists have available from their own field that would be contradicted by “aliens did it”? I’m not even sure archeology qualifies as an empirical science, at least not in the strict definition of the term? It’s not really repeatable; you can only dig a site once. And it’s not really testable for the same reasons.

    I harbor no illusions about persuading people on message boards, which is why I don’t post often in this forum, too many here suffer from “Paradigm paralysis” and “materialistic fundamentalism” two debilitating diseases of the mind for which there is, sadly, no cure.

    I disagree, but as I said, I was just trying to be topical.

    Dido.

    Dido.

    Like yourself, for example?
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2012
  7. sojourner

    sojourner Admiral In Memoriam

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    Dido? WTH does she have to do with this?
     
  8. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    Virgil put her up to it.
     
  9. Deckerd

    Deckerd Fleet Arse Premium Member

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    :lol:

    He sort of ruined his whole response, didn't he.
     
  10. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Gah! Your right of course, I meant to type "Dito" obviously, although this still would have been wrong since I see upon spell-checking that it's spelled with two "t"s.

    If you look at the time I last edited my post, you'll see it was very late past my usual bedtime. Let this be a lesson to all, never trust spell check -especially when you copy/paste!

    Oh well, we needed to lighten things up a bit anyway, so it’s all good.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2012
  11. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell memelord Premium Member

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    The usual spelling is "ditto."
     
  12. RAMA

    RAMA Admiral Admiral

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    In terms of Egyptology...I think the pyramids at Giza can be accepted as being decoys (kings were actually buried in the ground), so there never was a real burial purpose for them. I think a secondary but important purpose was ceremonial/theological/cosmological, since they built the pyramids to roughly correspond with Orion's belt and the capstone is a solar icon. Finally, since most if any of the workers who worked on it were not slaves but skilled workers of varying levels, they served an economic purpose and to keep the populace busy and diverted lest they get their noses into state business.

    http://robertbauval.co.uk/articles/articles/gizaorion.html

    As for ancient aliens...I think the fact that large numbers (40,000 to 200,000) of motivated people worked on the project, and they can predict how long those certain numbers of workers could complete the project, really takes the wind out of the sails of anyone claiming aliens helped them build it.
     
  13. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Thanks, but I said as much.;)
     
  14. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You're confusing psychology with sociology. Psychology is about the problems of people -- INDIVIDUAL people -- not the society in which they dwell. Sociology looks at the bigger picture the way you prescribe, but there aren't alot of sociologists taking patients these days.

    Nobody DISMISSES the effect. For most patients -- especially anorexics -- it's something that has to eventually take on a reduced importance in their minds in order to make meaningful progress. The only alternative is to go the alternate route and convince the patient and/or his friends and family to adopt different attitudes about his condition or about him as a person, and with some pathologies -- ESPECIALLY narcissists -- that can do more harm than good.

    Like I said, it has to do with America's healthcare systems. It's really hard to get reimbursed for treatment if you cannot give an insurance company a concrete diagnosis, so doctors make up new conditions that best fit the range of conditions or nonspecific disorders they sometimes encounter.

    This is especially clear in the case of "autistic spectrum disorders." The idea of autism having a spectrum is something that psychiatrists rolled out relatively recently when they realized insurance companies and/or special education programs would fall for it (mainly because few people outside the mental health community really understand autism). The idea is, you have a young patient who has some sort of obscure personality or learning disorder -- say, some type of NVD or he has some anxiety issues, or maybe he's had a series of horrible experiences with his peers and is now terrified of social interaction. Psychiatrists don't want to work for free, but they cannot often justify the expense of working with a kid who "has a bunch of problems and can use some help." I have actually heard psychiatrists advising parents "You should try to have him diagnosed with aspergers or something, that way he'll qualify for special ed and we can help him a bit."
     
  15. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Reverse engineering is not so straightforward a process as people like to believe. It's a very specialized sub-field in engineering that is actually more similar to forensics and archeology itself. Reverse engineering an ancient structure is next to impossible, for the very reasons you mentioned: I think you're under-estimating how important knowledge of ancient technology and building techniques actually IS, and archeologists are in a far better position to examine those techniques than engineers, almost to the point that an archeologist would be able to tell how a structure was built just by comparing it with other structures whose construction processes ARE documented.

    That's like saying archeologists 4000 years in the future won't be able to determine anything meaningful about capitalism until they reverse engineer the Golden Gate Bridge. That's just silly; you could reverse engineer half of San Francisco and it wouldn't tell you as much as a Tommy Friedman book. More importantly, even if you lacked the building schematics for the Golden Gate, you could determine alot about how it was built by comparing it with those of other suspension bridges you DO have data for; reverse engineering it is an interesting exercise for engineering sake, but it isn't helpful for archeologists.

    An archeologist wouldn't have to GUESS. He'd be able to consult the ancient records to figure how how they did it. If those records don't exist, then the goal of the archeologist is to find those records and translate them. Reverse engineering the pyramids isn't going to help with that processes.

    I'm not sure why that makes a difference. About a dozen of my ancestors are entombed in a mausoleum in Kentucky right now; my grandmother plans to join them when she dies. As that would involve OPENING the mausoleum in order to place her remains there, "intrusive burial" doesn't strike me as an odd thing to happen in a building designed to function as a tomb.

    More to the point, it's not really clear what else the pyramids could have been used for OTHER than that. There's not much room in there for much else; I could see them being used as the Pharaoh's panic room during an invasion, but as others have pointed out, they're not particularly effective as fortresses.
    Which is sort of what I was alluding to by Pharaohs faking their deaths and/or pretending to be reincarnated in the personage of their offspring. That would certainly answer the question of why the Egyptians would have buried an empty casket (except for Pharaoh dying in a way that his body couldn't be recovered). Not much evidence for that, but I've heard that theory floating around before.

    From you, when you say things like "it’s not that archeologists have been unable to determine if they were used for some other purpose, it’s that they have been unwilling to try, or even to consider the possibility"

    It seems to me they're quite open to that possibility. Perhaps you should be more specific about what you're referring to?

    It does, actually, since water erosion over stone is not something geologists typically use to determine the age of structures -- artificial or otherwise -- because it's extremely difficult to determine at what rate that erosion actually occurred.

    Never heard of this before, though I know Lockyer as one of the discoverers of helium (not sure who the other guys were).

    Neither have astronomers. That may tell you something.

    In exactly the same way that most science teachers avoid problematic students. But in both cases it doesn't take a great deal of prodding to get them to admit "Well, I always hoped..." followed by a cautious, "But where's the evidence?"

    Yes, just not in the way you're thinking. Most of the evidence you're referring to has been compiled by people who lack expertise in most of those fields and aren't really in a position to determine whether they are relevant to the legend itself or just odd coincidences related to something else entirely (or garbage data related to nothing at all).

    AFAIK, Egyptian writings contain an account of the construction of the pyramids, for example, or at least imply that the Egyptians didn't think there was anything particularly odd or otherworldly about the nature of their construction. This is even more true of the Mayan pyramids, for which somewhat more detailed writings exist on their significance as well as their construction.

    That's not really what "empirical" means, but the point in this case is archeologists cannot (or, as a rule, TRY not) to make claims that aren't supported by concrete findings. They don't make assumptions about what was going on in a particular culture unless they can find some clues that indicate as much.

    I concede that you cannot always say the same about anthropologists, though. History records MANY cases where anthropologists chose to interpret the behaviors of ancient or isolated peoples through their own cultural lens and reached totally erroneous or inappropriate conclusions as a result. Things have gotten a lot better since then, but the tendency is still there to some degree.

    Exactly.:techman:
     
  16. RAMA

    RAMA Admiral Admiral

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    While I originally was talking about educated men in one field speculating on other disciplines or using thier position as a forum to bring together other scientists to discuss a lot of these big questions we like to discuss here that don't neatly fit into one scientific field, science itself has become more specialized, my point is that they have to share information where these specializations overlap. This can happen in any one of the sciences, and even in the "soft" sciences. As pointed out in this Berkeley article, this collaboration I'm talking about is more common than ever too.

    http://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/modern_science

     
  17. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's not a new thing. Scientists have been doing that since the enlightenment for one purpose or another (the first high profile case was the debates over whether or not meteor craters were caused by volcanic or meteorite action). That is a very different issue from scientists using their expertise in a specific field as a platform for speculation in a totally unrelated one (for example: when Stephen Hawking says something like "The biological, Darwinian phase of human evolution is over." WTF does a physicist know about evolution?)
     
  18. Deckerd

    Deckerd Fleet Arse Premium Member

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    I think you're over-egging the pudding a bit here. If people on this board are allowed to discuss evolution, then everybody is. Some people are more informed than others and I would suggest that Prof Hawking falls into the first category.
     
  19. throwback

    throwback Captain Captain

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    If there were writings by the Egyptians on the construction of the pyramids, they were lost. The first written surviving account we have on the construction of the pyramids was written by Herodotus, who claimed that slaves built the pyramids. Study of the pyramids themselves revealed that the construction teams were divided into units, and these units were assigned specialized tasks. The workers were conscripted in between the farming seasons to work on the pyramids.

    As for the Mayans, if they too had writings on the construction of their pyramids, these too were lost. (The Spanish were very efficient in destroying Mayan writings.) The surviving documents were historical records and calendars.

    As for Professor Hawking's belief, I think it was unfair to judge him without knowing where he got his information. He might have been reading books and scholarly papers about Human evolution, and formed his opinion based on these.
     
  20. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell memelord Premium Member

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    There is nothing wrong with a scientist discussing anything, however when a scientist makes claims--particularly predictive ones--they should take care to be clear about what they are predicting and what they are basing it on. American anti-intellectualism aside, people generally do trust scientists to know what they're talking about, and when a scientist of any stripe makes a claim about the future, they are inherently using their credibility as a scientific professional to reinforce it.