Tallis, I think you've misread Teya. She is, I believe, summarizing what she believes TheGodBen and others who think having Seven sacrifice herself would have made for a compelling ending are saying, but she doesn't care for this point of view herself. That's what she means by her comment about it being "incredibly cynical." If I'm wrong, I'm sure Teya will correct me.
My bad - that post stands directed at the people who originally took that viewpoint then. Cheers JustKate, and sorry Teya
I can't believe it's over! The tears aren't just for the end of the thread - they're also for how bad "Endgame" was. I think "Endgame" is a pretty good capsule of the entire Voyager experience, both on the creative side and on the viewing side. There are emotionally rewarding moments, there are really stupid moments, and overall if you try not to think too hard you can enjoy it if you want to. Overall, you can tell the creative types behind it wanted it to be one thing, created plot contrivances and ignored holes to make it what they wanted it to be. I want to thank TheGodBen for a remarkable journey. Believe it or not, I wasn't just trying to be funny or trite in agreeing with him. I really have pretty much agreed with his assessments of the show - and when I haven't agreed, I've understood where he's coming from. Ultimately, this thread reinforced my own perception of Voyager (which is also the way I describe it to people when asked): it's overall an enjoyable show, but the extremes in good and bad episodes are perhaps the greatest of any Trek series, making for a very hit-or-miss viewing experience. And finally, perhaps my favorite nugget of wisdom from the final assessment: The universe - she hates him. Thanks again, TGB. I can't wait for the next one.
Absolutely. But the question isn't whether *we* or the crew or anyone else thinks her responsible, the point is that *she* feels responsible. She talks about the relevance of guilt as a motivation in "Memorial" among other episodes. I completely agree. My argument was (as I think you understand now) *against* the argument that sacrificing herself proves her humanity.
I always thought it was interesting that Seven felt guilty for her actions as a Borg, even though she was mind-controlled, but Icheb and the other Borg kids, who were much more in control of their own actions when they killed all those people trying to assimilate them, never seemed to feel much remorse about any of it.
I don't really post here but I wanted to thank TheGodBen for an enjoyable thread, I've pretty much only come to the site to read these reviews and everyone else's opinion, and it was a nice refreshing take on Voyager..... I haven't even seen most of Enterprise so I might try watching each ep just before your reviews.
No. Slightly cynical perhaps, but incredibly cynical? If she had been rescued from the Borg, put on trial for crimes she didn't commit, was imprisoned, used as a "canary" for hazardous away missions, was raped by the male (and lesbian) crewmembers, and at a critical moment in the final episode she killed herself so that the entire Voyager crew would die with her as her final revenge upon them... now that would have been incredibly cynical. But Ron Moore only wrote the one episode. The reason why I proposed Seven dying as a means of ending her character arc is because she is the character whose arc was all about reclaiming her humanity. The rest of the characters either didn't have a character arc or they had a completely different arc, such as Tom's transformation from a convict into a family man. The only other possible candidate was Doctor Shmully, but his arc had already been wrapped up in Author, Author at which point he was happy defining himself as a hologram and he was only interested in attaining rights for his kind. However, Seven's arc had always been about her desire to become human, and that is an arc which worked all the way up to Endgame when she made the decision to remove the Borg suppressant thing. If her character arc had been about amassing the biggest pile of beans in the galaxy then I would not be suggesting death as an appropriate resolution, but since her arc was about becoming human I believe that sacrificing herself would be the ultimate way of showing that she had completed her journey. You probably don't agree, but that's how I see it.
I get where you're coming from THEGodBen. I tend to agree with the idea - it kinda makes me think of Starbuck's arc from BSG. Kara starts out as someone with a bit of a death wish, not caring if she makes it back from a given mission, and by the end of the series, she's become someone who has a desire to, if she must die, have her death mean something. Likewise, I see the idea of Seven sacrificing herself to be an emphasis of what the character has become - as a Borg, if she were to have gotten killed, it would have been the destruction of an unimportant cog in the machine and it would have just been the Collective's will. Now that she's become human, grown and regained her humanity, her death would mean something, and it would be her choice to die in order to send the crew home. I'm not saying that this had to have happened to make Endgame a good finale or this was the best ending for Seven's arc, but I can see it as a fitting conclusion to her character's journey.
I don't see choosing to sacrifice yourself as the highest standard of being human. But then, since Voyager decided I'm not completely human (see "Tattoo"), then I'm probably not the best judge of what makes someone human.
Since I'm the most perfect example of humanity on this planet, I believe that I'm in a good position to define what a human is. It is my personal conviction that only white people with blonde hair and blue eyes are true humans (even though I have dark hair myself) and all other peoples should be contained within camps of some form. It has already been tried, you say? Okay then, I'll go with the Captain Kirk definition; everybody's human, even the Vulcans.
I believe that one of the main themes of Star Trek is the exploration of what it means to be "human" in the widest application of the word--which means that it includes aliens, like Vulcans. It is written, after all, for a human audience!
That's because this pair of trousers has buttons rather than a zip and they're such a bugger to undo that I just leave them undone.
Ah, how nice to know that even the the Star Trek world we're human after all. Too bad "Tattoo" still casts us as "other"--as in different from the rest of humanity. Seems the US Govt was right, after all.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager Oz dealt with all those with major characters, most notably with the one that could probably be considered the main character (even though it was an ensable show) who had all of these happen to him (in chronological order: repeated rape, abuse and humiliation of self; suicide of a spouse; death/murder of a child) - and they changed him profoundly. In fact, this change that the character undergoes was the basis of his character throughout the series. And he was not the only one who had to deal with the death of a child, or rape of oneself - several other characters had to deal with one or the other. The show was one in which these issues - violence and how it affects and changs people - were at the core of the show; it explored them deeply, because that's what the show was about, and there were always consequences for the characters and their psychology and later behavior. But of course, there is a world of difference between Oz and any Star Trek. Especially Voyager. Ironically, that's exactly what BSG did. And of course, it was not good TV. (Granted, they only had a few more episodes till the end - but they shouldn't have done it in the first place, as it was pointless.) They did it well... up until Spoiler: BSG season 4 Liam, Caprica and Tigh's baby .
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager That's just not true. There were plenty of moments when we saw the pilots together laughing, drinking toasting to each other, cracking jokes, or celebrating something (in "An Act of Contrition", they were cheerfully celebrating a pilot's 1000th landing, just before a bomb went off and killed many of them). In a deleted scene from "Scar" they were even auctioning a late pilot's belongings, including a porn magazine. In "Torn", everyone except Tigh and Starbuck behaves cheerfully and there is a lot of mirth and jokes when they're trying to come up with a callsign for Sharon, before Tigh destroys the moment because he is still tormented after his New Caprica experience, which is of course completely understandable. We always see Racestack and Skulls jokingly tease each other in the raptor. The Galactica crew were the perfect example of what you are talking about - people trying to laugh and find humor in a bad situation, despite their obvious traumas and pain. They just were not always happy and too functional for traumatized people in a hopeless situation. The Voyager crew, OTOH, just seemed happy-go-lucky and completely unfazed by the situation. If anything, BSG was also too optimistic and unrealistic in some respects - as someone said on the BSG subforum, in real life there would've been many suicides on the ship all the time.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager The VOY crew were more happy-go-lucky because their situation wasn't a unique case (other ships had been that far out and got home safe) and they had a civilization waiting for them. In other words, they didn't have that much to be sad about if you think it all through.