So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A First?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Pubert, Apr 19, 2015.

  1. Pubert

    Pubert Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2014
    Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs


    Splitting universes by episodes or movies doesn't count. I would only attempt to split universes by time travel. for instance in The City on the Edge of Forever McCoy changes time via the Guardian where Starfleet never exists. Even though time is changed for the most part at the end of the episode the universe where there is no Starfleet probably still exists and a third universe where McCoy never went back in time in the first place may still exist. In one episode that is 3different universes.
    The three different universes:The original when McCoy never went back in time to save Edith, The one where he saved edith and the one where Kirk prevented him from saving edith.
     
  2. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk A Spock and a smile Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2001
    Location:
    AI Generated Madness
    Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

    It's just a joke about the numerous inconsistencies in Star Trek. If you read what I wrote you'll see that.

    On a more serious note, every decision made has the potential to create and alternate reality. See the Doctor Who episode "Turn Left" for an example of this. Read up on the Many Worlds Interpretation for a more "real" take.
     
  3. Pubert

    Pubert Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2014
    Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs



    Oh a thousand apologies. I missed that.
     
  4. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2013
    Location:
    The Captain's Table
    Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

    ^Regarding "The City on the Edge of Forever," I've always wondered if Kirk, Spock and McCoy's presence was part of what was supposed to happen--and that McCoy's initial changes to history were necessary in order to convince Kirk and Spock of what had to be done to put history back on its original course.

    --Sran
     
  5. Push The Button

    Push The Button Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2013
    Location:
    Putnam, Connecticut USA
    Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

    Every time travel event would change something in the past, and even the most subtle change to the past would alter the future that you returned to. Consider how much contamination took place in First Contact, where we had Riker, Troi, Geordi, Barclay and dozens of other Enterprise crew interacting with Cochrane and his people. This is why I tend to view Enterprise as taking place in a reality that had been changed by the events in FC. This goes a long way toward explaining some of the more blatant continuity errors in ENT, such as Romulans having cloaking technology 100 years before they are supposed to.
     
  6. Grendelsbayne

    Grendelsbayne Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2013
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

    In this line of thought, I would say the first universe probably wouldn't bear any resemblance to Star Trek. Opportunities for branching would exist from the very beginning of the universe, whereas Humans (and most of the other races on Star Trek) have only existed for a few hundred thousand years at most. The odds of all of them coming to exist in that one 'first' universe even though their existence each requires billions of years of specific history leading up to them are probably astronomically small.

    In fact, it would seem that the odds of life existing at all are significantly smaller than the odds of it not existing, so chances are the 'first' universe (and, in fact, most universes) may be completely barren.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2015
  7. Ithekro

    Ithekro Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2012
    Location:
    Republic of California
    Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

    Nope I went there already for roleplaying purposes several decades ago. Though it was time travel to the future and back. Needed to motivate the lazy players. (If you don't do anything this will happen). Did another one for the past but that was directly in a Trek-Wars crossover story. Trek based ships, in Star Wars, that time travel by accident and have no clue if they messed anything up, because they have little to no records of the Clone War or before (this was done I think before Attack of the Clones came out).
     
  8. Mjolnir2000

    Mjolnir2000 Lieutenant Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2007
    Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

    Hate to nitpick, but just to clarify for anyone who doesn't have time to follow your link, the 'decisions' that the MWI is concerned with are the outcomes of quantum mechanical measurements. Decisions in the psychological sense are only relevant in so far as that brains are made out of particles that exhibit quantum behavior. The universes would carry on branching whether we were here or not.
     
  9. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2009
    Location:
    North Wales
    Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

    The difficulty I have with the quantum measurement Many Worlds system is that no decisions or actions in the universe are truly random - they are all the result of the particles set in motion at the moment of the big bang and the subsequent interaction they had over the subsequent aeons. "Random" is a label applied when we simply don't know the whole story. Even the decisions we make are not arbitrarily arrived at, they are the result of the cumulative experiences of our lives, which were in affected by other lives, other events, again traceable back (if we had a very long list!) to the particles set in motion at the beginning of the universe.
    Pre-determinism at its finest! ;)

    Of course, that does make alternate universes and "other paths taken" a very difficult phenomenon - in fact it would require an outside agent coming in and affecting the particle flow (AKA history) or in other words, a time traveller!
    IMO, time travel shenanigans are the only means of generating alternative timelines/universes

    I'm quite convinced that it WAS a predestination paradox - and furthermore, I think that such incidents are what the Guardian Of Forever was set up precisely to protect. After all, it is a pretty poor type of guardian who invite all and sundry through the gate it's supposed to be protecting!

    However, if the Guardian knew that the McCoy of the 23rd century was also required in the 1930s in order for history to unfold as it should, then it makes sense to let him through at the precise moment. Erecting a "limbo zone" around the rest of the landing party is simple enough and would (through subtle doubletalk about history being "gone" although really they're just isolated from the normal universe) motivate Kirk and Spock to enter the gateway and play their necessary roles in extant history.

    After all (in the change/fix history approach) why would McCoy need to "save" Edith Keeler in the first place? The only reason she crossed the street is because of Kirk's reunion with McCoy - and she was only on the street at all because Kirk took her out to the cinema! Explanations and justifications for the whole mess are possible, but having the entire scenario as a neat temporal loop is a far simpler explanation, IMO.

    To be honest, I think that most time travel events in Star Trek can be placed under the "predestination paradox" category, from Gary Seven to Gabriel Bell. This is largely because Trek time travellers tend to be fairly cautious and nervous about "changing history", so they restrict the amount of temporal damage done (and thus neatly fold themselves into a time loop with their own history). It would only be under extraordinary circumstances that result in incidents incompatible with the timeline of origin (Nero, for example) that a new timeline/universe would be created.

    Of course (as has been stated upthread) Starfleet time travellers are only the latest in a long history of inhabitants in the universe, so it makes sense that there have been new timelines created before by earlier time meddlers. Over the millennia this could give rise to numerous timelines, some superficially similar to our own and all giving the false impression of "infinite" parallel universes.
     
  10. Silvercrest

    Silvercrest Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2003
    Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

    We've seen one where Greedo fires first and then Han nails him, another where they fire simultaneously, and one where Han is the only one to fire. :p
     
  11. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Location:
    JirinPanthosa
    Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

    Also, we've seen one universe where the Jedi is an ancient long forgotten religion, and one universe where the Jedi were policing the universe 30 years ago.
     
  12. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

    When they said "a long time ago..." I didn't think they meant 30 years, but I guess for some folks that is an eternity. :p

    Anyway, my favorite theory is that all of the timelines have always existed simultaneously and that time travel or any other form of travel to an alternate timeline is not the -creation- of a new timeline but merely jumping tracks.

    Though I did enjoy the exchange in "Q-Squared" where Trelane not only told Jack Crusher that it's not -every- decision that creates a new timeline, but merely "significant" ones, but also that the only timeline in which Jack Crusher lived is one in which Wesley died as a small child.
     
  13. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    A type 13 planet in it's final stage
    Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

    Well, that and the entire 30+ year expanded universe continuity. And those cartoons that don't count anymore.
     
  14. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Location:
    JirinPanthosa
    Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs


    Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerer's ways, Lord Vader. Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes, or given you clairvoyance enough to find the Rebel's hidden fort...
     
  15. Mjolnir2000

    Mjolnir2000 Lieutenant Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2007
    Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

    MWI is 100% deterministic. You still get alternate histories, and no time travel is required.
     
  16. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Location:
    In many different universes, simultaneously.
    Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

    I can't wait to see your explanation of how this universe and the one with the Salt Vampire are the same one. Trelane said he was looking through his telescope at Earth... yet he had a Salt Vampire decorating his foyer. :wtf:


    What about the disappearing bum?

    I've mentioned an essay in one of the Best of Trek books in which Mark Andrew Golding speculates that the bum's death is the reason why none of the Star Trek characters ever heard of the Star Trek TV series - because his death set a chain of events in motion that led to Gene Roddenberry's death prior to his ever even pitching Star Trek as a series.
     
  17. Willow

    Willow Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2015
    Location:
    Alpha Centauri
    Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

    thats right ,,there is a movie called "Willow" :) actually it has nothing to do with the movie. I'm a big Reed fan (you could probably figure that by my avatar ;) ) There was a poem years back, can't rememeber the name, but it spoke about willows and reeds,,and possibly other flora and fauna that I've long since forgotten...anyway, my mind always associates willows with reeds. So, my choice of name reflects my affinity for the Reed character without an obvious statement...
    Though now that I've "stated" it, it's not quite so secret anymore! :p
     
  18. Metryq

    Metryq Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2009
    Location:
    North Wales
    Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

    That's as maybe, but it's not very compatible with time travel as depicted in Star Trek.
     
  20. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk A Spock and a smile Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2001
    Location:
    AI Generated Madness
    Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

    Who can say how long that Salt Vampire had been there. If it was there at all. Trelane and his possessions are all fake. He probably ran across it somewhere and added it to his collection or made a copy of it. You know how kids are.