Cetacian Ops?

I seem to remember a post on here about an area on a galaxy class starship (and the refit 1701 also, but Im not sure) where whales who were crew members resided, (Were they crew?) I cant find anything searching and I seem to remember seeing a couple of concept drawings, (I'm thinking they were done by Andy Probert, but I may be wrong as well.) I guess I'm just curious as to what benefits having whales or dolphins on board a spacefaring vessel would have, esp. scince some scientists now believe that whales and dolphins may not be as intelligent as once spectulated. how would these creatures be fed? I know starships are big but, a whale would hardly have room to move around unless they hollowed out the secondary hull and filled it with water. what happens to the whales should the crew have to abandon ship? also, I doubt whales could go on away missions because the salinity (if it even has salt in it) or PH of the water on an alien world would probibly kill them or at the very least cause them so much discomfort they would not be able to complete there mission.anyway, I guess I was wondering what original purpose the concept of a "Cetation Ops" area of a starship would fill, and if any thought was given to the logistics of such a faculity.

 

The licensed deck plans for the 1701-D show tanks in the forward area of the saucer in locations that don't conflict with either Ten Forward or the captain's quarters (two decks above Ten Forward). While not big enough for larger species, they look big enough for species the size of dolphins or orcas. While not like swimming in an ocean, they're probably comparable to late 20th century tanks used to overnight the performers for trained dolphin/orca shows (I believe some of the performance tanks are only used for shows and training). The deck plans also showed special aquatic lifeboats.

Presumably any use of cetaceans as crew members would require the establishment of some way of communicating with them well enough for them to agree to the relatively confined area.

With all the technology available in the federation I don't see why the cetatian crew members couldn't be equiped with anti-gravity "air/space suits". Voice recognition technology could be used to operate anchors and manipulators.

Aquatic alien species might be more receptive towards first contact with aquatic crew members, although it might be difficult for the aquatic aliens to build the warp capable spacecraft that would qualify them for open communications. There might be other cases with non-technological aquatics and technological dry land aliens though.

 

Indeed, the TNG Technical Manual says there is a mixed group of dolphins and ocrca onboard doing navigation research or some such. (Interesting side-note, the FASA published "TNG OFficer's Manual" suggested a similar arrangement, but with Medusans involved.)

As far as communications, I would think the universal translators could handle this. And as to intereacting, there is a drawing by Andrew Probert showing an area where the human and aquatic crewfolk could interact. Looks to me like a sort of cross between a lounge and the Seatle Aquarium viewing area.

In Diane Duane's novel Dark Mirror, she suggests a kind of mobile anti-grav platform equipped with a force-field to hold a shell of water around the dolphin crew member in the story.

Perhaps.

Why so?

 

Re: Cetacean Ops?

The dolphins and orcas were civilian navigation specialists, according to the TNG Tech Manual. Remember that the Galaxy-class ships had civilian scientists and families on board as well as officers, though this is something that was neglected in later seasons of TNG.

I'm unaware of any claims of cetacean personnel aboard the refit 1701.

Within the Trek universe, humpback whales are canonically known to be sentient, so it's logical to conclude that other cetaceans could be sentient in-universe as well.

Same way anyone else is -- via the replicators.

Bottlenose dolphins average 3 meters long, and orcas (which are actually the largest dolphin species) average about 7 meters. We're not talking about humpbacks or blue whales here.

Why? First of all, any ocean on a class-M planet is going to have salinity, because that comes from the dissolved minerals in runoff from land masses. Second, although oceanic dolphin species can't survive long in freshwater environments like rivers (although their are river dolphin species), they can no doubt handle a fairly wide range of salinities and presumably pH levels in the oceans of Earth, given that they have fairly wide ranges in the ocean.

Besides, realistically, humans would have to worry about different chemistry and metallicity on alien planets as well, but Trek routinely assumes that humans can thrive on any M-class world. Presumably the same conceit would apply to oceans as well.

The concept probably came from Rick Sternbach, who IIRC has worked with dolphins in the past and has a longstanding interest in their intelligence. (Sternbach has done various SF book covers and other paintings featuring technology-using dolphins, including the cover to Larry Niven's World of Ptavvs.) The purpose was presumably to live up to ST's principles of diversity and inclusion and to bring a little more exotica to the mix of the E-D crew, and probably to build on ST IV's establishment of cetacean sentience as a reality within the Trekverse. As stated above, the in-universe purpose according to the TNGTM was that the dolphins served as navigational analysts, applying their own distinctive way of thinking about 3-dimensional navigation. There's logic to the idea that beings accustomed to moving through the ocean in three dimensions might have better insights about movement in space than we humans with our tendency to move and think in two dimensions. It's a concept that's been used in SF before.

 

In The Perfect Mate, Geordi asks the Ferengi, "Have you had a chance to see the dolphins yet?"

 

Also, in "Yesterday's Enterprise" a crewmember is paged to "Cetacean Ops" over the PA system. So if the battleship Enterprise had them...

 

I have it on good authority that the head cetacean trooper aboard the YE 1701-D is named Dolphin Lundgren.

 

One might consider that 24th century folks could grant this status to individuals of much lower sentience levels than that of an average healthy human. You don't have to be able to do calculus, write prose or paint in oils in order to be a "navigation specialist". You don't necessarily even have to speak English. I'm sure some sort of a communications system could be rigged to make use of the natural skills of a dolphin even without its active cooperation - or even consent.

Timo Saloniemi

 

What a disturbing notion. Do you really think the Federation would do anything so exploitative? That they would force dolphins to do their bidding? Maybe in the Mirror Universe.

Besides, it contradicts what the TNGTM actually says. On pp. 44-5, it refers to the dolphins as a "consultation crew" that is "overseen" by the two orcas. It goes on:

So we're clearly not talking about sled dogs in harness here.

 

Okay but are dolphins THAT smart? the ocean enviroment and lack of opposable thumbs make for some pretty benign brain challenges. I know dolphins are highly intelligent as far as vs other animals. but would a dolphin even know what a nav. computer was much less how to navigate in space? sure they can navigate in the ocean because there is gravity to tell them which way is down. in space the only gravity point of reference would be the gravity generated by the starship they were on, so I would guess with out anyway to tell which way was up and down in space, theyd be pretty useless. I would also take a leap here and say that you cant teach a dolphin the complex math required for the position you describe them having aboard the ship. and BTW, I'm not dissing dolphins or whales either, I happen to think they are wonderful animals and yes they seem very smart, but not THAT smart.

 

Within the Trek universe, it is a canonical fact that cetaceans (in the person of humpback whales) are sapient beings. We're talking about a work of fiction. Dolphins can be as smart as the story needs them to be.

Hardly. The ocean is a much harsher and more challenging environment for an air-breathing mammal than the land is. If anything, there's a strong incentive to evolve intelligence as a means of dealing with those challenges, which is why dolphins are so smart and so social (since cooperation helps).

Even for animals that evolved there, there's nothing benign about the ocean. It's a complex, dangerous, often forbidding environment. If it were easier to live in the ocean than on land, life never would've had an incentive to evolve to live on land in the first place.

And lack of opposable thumbs is only relevant to technology, not intelligence. We conflate the two because we're a tool-using species, but that's just egocentrism. And in fact dolphins are tool-users insofar as they're able to be.

Would Isaac Newton have even known what a nav computer was? No. But that doesn't mean he lacked intelligence, only a cultural context. Don't confuse knowledge with intelligence.

Uhh, are you forgetting that humans live in gravity too? We have to adjust our way of thinking to navigate in space. Dolphins would have less of an adjustment to make, because they're used to moving -- and thinking -- in three dimensions.

And gravity is of limited relevance in the ocean, since buoyancy largely cancels it out.

In some respects, dolphins are probably smarter than we are, although that's a crude way of putting it. We're different species with different evolutionary needs, so our intelligence has specialized in different directions.


http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro98/202s98-paper3/Ball3.html

To clarify, the frontal lobe is responsible for foresight, planning, decision-making, and social skills, and Broca's and Wernicke's areas are responsible for language.

 

I think 'Otten's Forgotten Trek" site has some pics of concept drawings of both the TNG and TMP refit cetacean areas? If anyone is interested?

 

Use dolphins against their consent? Probably not.

Use dolphins with what is generously interpreted as their consent? Absolutely. They do far worse things to human(oid)s with their often ill-informed consent, such as sending them to die in the sort of fights they obviously cannot cope with.

"Consulting" need not imply suits, ties and small cups of strong coffee. It may imply harnesses conceptually not unlike those of a sled dog. It would IMHO be far more distasteful if Starfleet measured all its employees on the "healthy average human" yardstick; sled dogs might quite well serve on Starfleet surface exploration teams in areas suited for sleds, for example.

Timo Saloniemi

 

I think Cetacean Ops was originally called Dolphin Stadium.

 

People don't "consult" with sled dogs or implement their "recommendations" as policy. It is obvious from the text of the TNGTM that the intention was for dolphins to be fully sapient beings within the context of the Trek universe. Heck, I'm certain Rick Sternbach himself would be happy to confirm that if he comes across this thread.

And honestly I'm always startled by the hostility to that idea I find here. SF fans are supposed to be interested in the idea of contact with alien intelligence. So I don't understand this resistance to the idea -- supported by overwhelming scientific evidence -- that there is a sapient alien species right here on our own planet. Frankly that strikes me as a kind of xenophobia that's incompatible with the science fiction mentality. Are you only willing to tolerate the idea of sophonts who look like humans in latex appliances?

 

Only if they sound like they're from California.

 

In my case, the resistance is not to the idea that dolphins might be sapient. It is to this idea:

The concept of "fully sapient" is IMHO unimaginative and restrictive. Surely there must exist degrees of sapience below and above that which characterizes the Homo folks, and surely it would be intellectually and practically interesting to converse with such sapiences, even if it were akin to talking to a retarded two-year-old, or being that two-year-old and trying to make sense of Sartre.

The wonderful Universal Translator already should allow us to "converse" with dolphins, "consult" dogs, "debate" with bats and "interview" hamsters, not to mention the things the UT would do to semantic analysis of known human languages. Say, perhaps we could have a politician's talk interpreted on the run?

Timo Saloniemi

 

Dolphins have shown incredible intelligence and even in some cases shown hints of sentience.

 

I've read through the posts; while there is some disagreement over how intelligent dolphins are, they certainly qualify in my mind as 'trainable" for deep space missions in a fictional setting like Trek. That is, it's plausible under certain conditions, not the least of which is their acceptance of an invitation to go "out there" once a reliable level of communication is established. I believe we can accomplish that communication by the time of TNG. Measuring a tursiops' level of intelligence may not be easy by human (or even basic primate) standards, so we'll probably have to establish some scale of similarities and differences and derive some index of how well we can work together on specific tasks, like navigation.

I wouldn't force them to go with us. In a way, asking a dolphin to go into space and letting it stay home if it declines is easier than considering the same situation with a six-year old human child. Do you force the kid to go just because mom and dad both work on the ship? What if the kid steadfastly refuses? How do you resolve that one? Recruit a roomful of Starfleet psychologists?

Rick