Angel ep by ep; rewatch and reviews

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by saturn5, Jun 28, 2010.

  1. saturn5

    saturn5 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2010
    Don't put your daughter on the stage!;)

    DESTINY
     
    The Good;
    The fight, the race, the flashbacks, all great! And the great ending. The Fred/Eve hurt/comfort scene is also very powerful
    The Bad;
    As they point out in the commentary the Alice Cooper eyeshadow. Also the idea that Lorne would just lock himself in his office, I mean this is the guy who went to fight the Beast.
    Best line;
    Spike; "Mountan Dew!"
    Jeez, how did they get away with that?
    Gunn throttling Eve is horrible, reminds you of Lilah/Gavin. Spike and Angelus crashing the wedding.
    Apocalypses: 5
    Angel Cliches
    In disguise; 8
    DB/JM get's his shirt off; 17,
    Cheap Angel; 7
    Subverting the cliche;
    Mountain Dew! Also when Fred tries to sympathise with Eve and Eve rejects her concern.
    Fang Gang in bondage: Gunn chained to the bed
    Cordy: 5
    Angel: 14
    Wes: 7
    Gunn; 7
    Lorne; 5
    Fred; 3

    Fang gang knocked out: Gunn doped up
    Cordy: 15
    Angel: 19
    Wes: 8
    Doyle; 1
    Gunn; 3
    Lorne; 7
    Groo; 1
    Connor; 1
    Faith; 1
    Fred; 4
    Kills;
    Cordy: 5 vamps, 3½ demons
    Angel; 45 vamps, 61 and 1/2 demons, 5 zombies, 12 humans, one werewolf and one cyborg
    Doyle; 1 vamp
    Wes; 14 demons+5 vamps, 5 zombies, 3 humans, 2 cyborgs
    Kate; 3 vamps
    Faith; 18 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.
    Gunn; 11 vamps+ 13 demons, 5 zombies, 1 human.
    Groo; 1 demon
    Fred; 3 vamps+ 2 demon, 5 zombies
    Connor; 16 vamps, 5 zombies, 2 demons, Jasmine
    Fang Gang go evil: Gunn big time
    Cordy: 3
    Angel: 3
    Gunn; 1
    Wes; 1

    Alternate Fang Gang;
    Cordy: 4
    Angel: 11
    Fred; 2
    Wes; 1
    Gunn; 1
    Connor; 1
    Lorne; 1

    Characters killed:
    2261
    Recurring characters killed;
    10
    Total number of Angel Investigations; 5,
    Angel, Gunn, Fred, Lorne, Wes,

    Angel Investigations shot:
    Angel: 14
    Wes; 2
    Packing heat;
    Wes; 11
    Doyle; 1
    Angel; 4
    Gunn; 3
    Fred; 3

    Notches on Fang Gang bedpost: Spike get's 'solid' again and jumps on top of a willing Harmony like the dumb tramp she is
    Cordy: 5 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo+Connor plus possibly the Beast
    Angel: 6; Buffy, Darla, The Transcending Furies, Eve
    Wes; 3 definite; Virginia, the bleached blonde and Lilah, 1 possible, Justine
    Gunn; 2 Fred and Gwen.
    Fred; 1 Gunn
    Groo; 1Cordy
    Spike; 3-Buffy, Anya, Harmony

    Kinky dinky:
    Spike and Harmony on the desk. Unromantic but having been denied the touch of a woman (or anything else) for so long hardly suprising Spike jumps on the first (room temperature) body he can get? Angelus and Dru, much to Spike's dismay. Dru refers to Spike as 'sweet willy'. Darla still devoted to her Master much to Angelus's disgust. Spike let's slip about the circumstances of him killing his mother, Harmony comments how it explains a lot. Fred knows what the term 'nooner' means. Love Eve's dress and the sexy striptease she does at the end. Gunn cautions Eve 'Don't be touching the robots'. Spike describes sex with Buffy as 'putting it to her'. Gunn says that Fred might want to tie him down again, does he mean when he went crazy or when they were dating?
    Captain Subtext;
    Angelus comments that he's sick of the company of just women and asks Spike if he thinks he's 'deviant'? Angel asks the newly corporeal Spike to stop touching him. Angelus bids Spike to be 'Home before sunrise' again casting the Fanged Four as a sort of family with him as the father and Spike as the son. Eve calls Fred 'princess' and 'sweetie', Spike calls Angel a ponce. Spike is happy to voyeuristically watch Angelus having sex until he realises it's with Dru. As with Lover's Walk, souled Angel still knows how to push Spike's buttons. Once again Spike and Dru seem to retain some aspect of humanity which other vamps lack, Angelus saying that vamps can't know true love ('Nothing is yours')and Spike and Dru intent on trying anyway. Spike also hugs Gunn and asks him to go drinking with him at the end of the ep. Even Joss comments upon the homo-eroticism of the Spike/Angel scenes.
    Know the face, different character; 5
    Parking garages;
    8,
    Guantanamo Bay
    Buffy characters on Angel; 16.
    Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony. POSSIBLY The First Evil
    What the fanficcers thought;
    A great gift for Spangelers
    Missing scenes;
    Questions and observations;
    No Wes who's on a leave of abscence, possibly heading home to visit his folks after the events of Lineage (Alexis Dennisof in real life marrying Alysson Hannigan the lucky bugger). I'm sure the idea of everyone being sent mad by a phonecall was a Stephen King book? Eve quotes The Music Man. Hell of a tumble MM's stuntwoman takes when Spike hits her. Instead of racing Spike why doesn't Angel use his helicopter? Presumably Angel and Spike reach the opera house at the same time because Angel already knows where it is?
    DB apparently loves doing his Irish accent. Has he ever heard it? Gunn sees the howling abyss but obviously the budget won't stretch that far so the rest of us don't get to.
    Spike is right of course, he IS better than Angel because he fought to get his soul back. He blames Angel(us) not for making him a vampire but for making him the evil monster of a vampire he was, that it was Angelus' influence that made him worse than all the rest. Spike comments that Dru still has a bit of a child in her, like him she still retains some humanity. Or he retains some humanity BECAUSE she was his sire.
    Angel asks Spike does he want the destiny because it's his or because it's something to take away from Angel? You could make the same argument for Buffy, did Spike love her for his own sake or because she was Angel's and he wanted her for himself? As revenge for Angelus/Dru?
    And of course, Spike beats Angel in a fair fight! I guess that's one question answered. Does the title Destiny refer to Angel and Spike or might it actually refer to Lindsey who thinks his destiny is to run WR&H?
    Marks out of 10; 9/10 for the Angel(us)/Spike scenes alone
     
  2. AJBryant

    AJBryant Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2006
    Location:
    Indiana
    I was going to say "I think I love you" but I couldn't remember if you were a lady-fan or a guy-fan, and I didn't want to commit a "bro" pas. ;)
     
  3. saturn5

    saturn5 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2010
    "Indianna wants me, but I can't go back there.." at least until the statute of limitations runs out.;)

    HARM'S WAY
     
    The Good;
    All things Harmony, love the demon summit stuff and Fred and Harm bonding. Great bitchfight between Harmony and her rival. The WR&H corporate video is also great they should have got Troy McClure to do the voiceover.
    The Bad;
    It's lightweight and inconsequential but it's meant to be.
    Best line;
    Fred; "I'm sure Angel can help you"
    Harmony; "Angel's not a helper, he's a chopper" (as her friend Eli found out)
    Jeez, how did they get away with that?
    You feel so sorry for poor lonely Harm, just because she's evil doesn't means she doesn't have feelings.
    Apocalypses: 5
    Angel Cliches
    In disguise; 8
    DB/JM get's his shirt off; 17,
    Cheap Angel; 8 he refuses to give Spike any travelling cash but will lend him a car if it gets him out of town "Typical, you cheap sod".
    Subverting the cliche;
    Fang Gang in bondage: Lorne and Fred tied up
    Cordy: 5
    Angel: 14
    Wes: 7
    Gunn; 7
    Lorne; 6
    Fred; 4

    Fang gang knocked out: Fred and Lorne knocked out by Harmony
    Cordy: 15
    Angel: 19
    Wes: 8
    Doyle; 1
    Gunn; 3
    Lorne; 8
    Groo; 1
    Connor; 1
    Faith; 1
    Fred; 5
    Kills; one demon for Angel
    Cordy: 5 vamps, 3½ demons
    Angel; 45 vamps, 62 and 1/2 demons, 5 zombies, 12 humans, one werewolf and one cyborg
    Doyle; 1 vamp
    Wes; 14 demons+5 vamps, 5 zombies, 3 humans, 2 cyborgs
    Kate; 3 vamps
    Faith; 18 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.
    Gunn; 11 vamps+ 13 demons, 5 zombies, 1 human.
    Groo; 1 demon
    Fred; 3 vamps+ 2 demon, 5 zombies
    Connor; 16 vamps, 5 zombies, 2 demons, Jasmine
    Fang Gang go evil:
    Cordy: 3
    Angel: 3
    Gunn; 1
    Wes; 1

    Alternate Fang Gang;
    Cordy: 4
    Angel: 11
    Fred; 2
    Wes; 1
    Gunn; 1
    Connor; 1
    Lorne; 1

    Characters killed: poor Toby
    2261
    Recurring characters killed;
    10
    Total number of Angel Investigations; 5,
    Angel, Gunn, Fred, Lorne, Wes,

    Angel Investigations shot:
    Angel: 14
    Wes; 2
    Packing heat;
    Wes; 11
    Doyle; 1
    Angel; 4
    Gunn; 3
    Fred; 3

    Notches on Fang Gang bedpost:
    Cordy: 5 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo+Connor plus possibly the Beast
    Angel: 6; Buffy, Darla, The Transcending Furies, Eve
    Wes; 3 definite; Virginia, the bleached blonde and Lilah, 1 possible, Justine
    Gunn; 2 Fred and Gwen.
    Fred; 1 Gunn
    Groo; 1Cordy
    Spike; 3-Buffy, Anya, Harmony

    Kinky dinky:
    Harmony 'sluts it up' and beds a guy she picks up in a bar. She comments that Fred doesn't have 'a lot up front', sad but true and something she's a little self-conscious about to judge by Spin the Bottle. Fred actually knows that Wes and Knox are after her, you think back to her remark at the end of Waiting in the Wings. She thinks both are hot. Harmony offers to show Angel her abs. The demons refer to Angel as a 'filthy man whore'.
    Captain Subtext;
    The girls doubt Wesley could be interested in Fred because 'Everyone knows he's...muffins'. Vamps consider live people to be 'straight'. Despite implying that a male vamp would have to be gay to bite another man Harmony eyes up the necks of the office girls and has bitten Willow in the past. Fred and Harmony's night out resembles a date
    Know the face, different character; 5
    Parking garages; yep, where Harm dumps the body
    9,
    Guantanamo Bay
    Buffy characters on Angel; 16.
    Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony. POSSIBLY The First Evil
    What the fanficcers thought;
    Missing scenes;
    Questions and observations;
    Always thought that Harmony's rival looked familar, finally recognised her as Karen, one of John Lithgow's students from 3rd Rock from the Sun. Angel and Spike are still bashed up from Destiny. We knew Spike and Fred were chummy but he seems to be on good terms with Lorne too. Was Harm ever really popular or did she just ride on CC's coatails? WR&H 'own' the LAPD which must have been news to Kate. It strikes me that if you really are an astronaut it must be a useless pickup line as no one actually believes you. Spike comes back to Harm in the end, shows his sensitive side and appears to finally give up any hope of ever being with Buffy
    Marks out of 10;7/10 a lot of folks loathe this ep but I rather like it
     
  4. saturn5

    saturn5 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2010
    SOUL PURPOSE
    The Good;
    Brilliant dream sequences, especially like Honky Tonk, Fred's surgery and the apocalypse fantasy. Interesting to see Spike and Lindsey setting themselves up like a proto Angel and Doyle.
    The Bad;
    Stupid looking creature and I don't buy the whole earrings idea. What's Lindsey's plan, he doesn't want to kill Angel as he sends Spike to rescue him? Just want to dishearten him so he gives up? Afraid that killing him would incur the wrath of the Senior Partners?
    Best line;
    Wes; "You're overlooking the merits of assassination" (words to make James Bond proud!)
    Jeez, how did they get away with that?
    Apocalypses: 5
    Angel Cliches
    In disguise; 8
    DB/JM get's his shirt off; 18, yep and his chest opened.
    Cheap Angel; 8
    Subverting the cliche; Spike tells off the woman he rescued for walking down dark alleys in high heels.
    Fang Gang in bondage:
    Cordy: 5
    Angel: 14
    Wes: 7
    Gunn; 7
    Lorne; 6
    Fred; 4

    Fang gang knocked out:
    Cordy: 15
    Angel: 19
    Wes: 8
    Doyle; 1
    Gunn; 3
    Lorne; 8
    Groo; 1
    Connor; 1
    Faith; 1
    Fred; 5
    Kills; Spike kills 5 vamps (2 offscreen) plus the parasite. Does Lindsey hire these guys and set them up to be killed or does Spike just patrol and run into them?
    Cordy: 5 vamps, 3½ demons
    Angel; 45 vamps, 62 and 1/2 demons, 5 zombies, 12 humans, one werewolf and one cyborg
    Doyle; 1 vamp
    Wes; 14 demons+5 vamps, 5 zombies, 3 humans, 2 cyborgs
    Kate; 3 vamps
    Faith; 18 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.
    Gunn; 11 vamps+ 13 demons, 5 zombies, 1 human.
    Groo; 1 demon
    Fred; 3 vamps+ 2 demon, 5 zombies
    Connor; 16 vamps, 5 zombies, 2 demons, Jasmine
    Spike; 21 vamps, 7 demons+1 human+one parasite
    Fang Gang go evil:
    Cordy: 3
    Angel: 3
    Gunn; 1
    Wes; 1

    Alternate Fang Gang;
    Cordy: 4
    Angel: 11
    Fred; 2
    Wes; 1
    Gunn; 1
    Connor; 1
    Lorne; 1

    Characters killed:
    2261
    Recurring characters killed;
    10
    Total number of Angel Investigations; 5,
    Angel, Gunn, Fred, Lorne, Wes,

    Angel Investigations shot:
    Angel: 14
    Wes; 2
    Packing heat;
    Wes; 11
    Doyle; 1
    Angel; 4
    Gunn; 3
    Fred; 3

    Notches on Fang Gang bedpost:
    Cordy: 5 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo+Connor plus possibly the Beast
    Angel: 6; Buffy, Darla, The Transcending Furies, Eve
    Wes; 3 definite; Virginia, the bleached blonde and Lilah, 1 possible, Justine
    Gunn; 2 Fred and Gwen.
    Fred; 1 Gunn
    Groo; 1Cordy
    Spike; 3-Buffy, Anya, Harmony

    Kinky dinky:
    As the writer states, the way to endear yourself to a film crew is to set a scene in a strip club (and a HUGE number of shows seem to end up there eventually), lots of lovely ladies wearing very little flexing themselves around poles. Angel gives Fred a pearl necklace, a pornographic slang term you either understand or you don't so I'm certainly not going to explain it here.
    Captain Subtext;
    Lindsey almost seems to trying a gay pickup on Spike who refers to him as Mary and Butch. He says he doesn't want to be Lindsey's 'kept boy'. Fred retrieves a pearl necklace from Angel's stomach? Angel imagines himself in bed with Buffy AND Spike (in the comics Buffy fantasises about the same except they're all in chains and she's dressed as a sexy nurse). Note however there are also female clients in the strip club.
    Spike refers to himself as a 'working class lad'. Rubbish, his 'mockney' accent is all a sham as Lies My Parents Told Me proved. He's upper class. This may be some form of class guilt from Angel who was middle class (The Prodigal) and feels bad about all the luxury he know enjoys. Get Gunn together and they could do the Class sketch from the David Frost show (funniest sketch EVER!)
    Know the face, different character; 5
    Parking garages;
    9,
    Guantanamo Bay;
    "Sold their children to the devil, KILL THEM ALL!" Angel has his Xena moment.
    Buffy characters on Angel; 16.
    Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony. POSSIBLY The First Evil
    What the fanficcers thought;
    Remember reading an interesting one once where the stripper called Sunshine who Spike is watching is actually Kate Lochley earning money to fund her law degree (so that she can change her identity and become a DA in New York). Also not a few from Spikettes where Spike is the hero and takes over WR&H from Angel.
    Missing scenes;
    Apparently for an April Fools Day gag there was a trailer for Dollhouse where Echo and Ballard get in the lift and ask the bear from this ep to hit the floor button for them. Anyone seen it?
    Questions and observations;
    What does Harmony's remark about Machiavelli mean? Interesting that Spike used to do good deeds in order to impress his love Buffy. Now he does them because he has a conscience and it's the right thing to do. Eve is already wearing her earrings in the Honky Tonk scene. You can't help but think Wes and Gunn would make a good pair if they were ever to remake Miami Vice (certainly better than Fox and Farrell). Spike reads Wes and Gunn perfectly, once more showing his insight, the points he makes are all very true as Gunn is loathe to admit. Harmony remarks of Angel "Act like we care", Harm's Way obviously still rankles. What's the significance of the stone, is it just a plain red herring? The critter is very Aliens/Bad Eggs/The Hidden. Great to have DB's commentary but wish he'd talk less about cameras and more about the series as a whole. Eve says that Spike has yet to have a big red S on his shirt, may be coincidence but of course JM appears on Smallville. Once again Spike quotes Star Wars despite his mocking the Geeks for doing so in Sunnydale.
    The bear may be a reference to Hoopy Bear, a demonic teddy bear from the Buffy comics that turns into a real bear and acts out it's owners inner desires Something Blue style. Problem is the demon acolytes accidentally give it to Dawn rather than Buffy who's in the asylum at the time. Read it if you can, very cute story with a lovely ending of Dawn, Hank and Joyce happy together and a dejected Hoopy Bear down and out drinking beer behind the 7-11. Does Spike have any money stashed? He seemed to constantly be broke in Sunnydale. Shame SMG couldn't do a cameo, do we know the name of her double? She could go into the list of actresses who played Buffy along with SMG, Kristy Swanson, Eliza Dushku and the 2 little Buffy's we see in 'Weight of the World' and 'Killed by Death'.
    Marks out of 10; 8/10
     
  5. saturn5

    saturn5 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2010
    DAMAGE

    The Good;
    Great breakout scene, very Halloween, Terminator 2. Andrew is funny as hell and wonderful final scene between Spike and Angel.

    The Bad;
    How does Lindsey know about these things to send Spike to?

    Best line;
    Angel (of Dana); "She's an innocent victim"
    Spike; "So were we, once upon a time"
    Makes me tear up every single time!

    Jeez, how did they get away with that?
    All the torture and murder scenes and of course Spike's arms being cut off! Can't watch any of the scenes with Dana being tortured or her family being killed, just too horrible

    Apocalypses: 5

    Angel Cliches

    In disguise; 8

    DB/JM get's his shirt off; 18,

    Cheap Angel; 8

    Fang Gang in bondage: Spike chained up
    Cordy: 5
    Angel: 14
    Wes: 7
    Gunn; 7
    Lorne; 6
    Fred; 4
    Spike; 6

    Fang gang knocked out: Spike
    Cordy: 15
    Angel: 19
    Wes: 8
    Doyle; 1
    Gunn; 3
    Lorne; 8
    Groo; 1
    Connor; 1
    Faith; 1
    Fred; 5
    Spike; 5

    Kills;
    Cordy: 5 vamps, 3½ demons
    Angel; 45 vamps, 62 and 1/2 demons, 5 zombies, 12 humans, one werewolf and one cyborg
    Doyle; 1 vamp
    Wes; 14 demons+5 vamps, 5 zombies, 3 humans, 2 cyborgs
    Kate; 3 vamps
    Faith; 18 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.
    Gunn; 11 vamps+ 13 demons, 5 zombies, 1 human.
    Groo; 1 demon
    Fred; 3 vamps+ 2 demon, 5 zombies
    Connor; 16 vamps, 5 zombies, 2 demons, Jasmine
    Spike; 21 vamps, 7 demons+1 human+one parasite
    Fang Gang go evil:
    Cordy: 3
    Angel: 3
    Gunn; 1
    Wes; 1

    Alternate Fang Gang;
    Cordy: 4
    Angel: 11
    Fred; 2
    Wes; 1
    Gunn; 1
    Connor; 1
    Lorne; 1

    Characters killed: Dana cuts up the 2 poor orderlies at the hospital, the unfortunate security guard at the supermarket (someone should count all the security guards who get killed in Buffy/Angel over the years) and the tragic docker who tries to help her
    2265

    Recurring characters killed;
    10

    Total number of Angel Investigations; 5,
    Angel, Gunn, Fred, Lorne, Wes,

    Angel Investigations shot:
    Angel: 14
    Wes; 2

    Packing heat;
    Wes; 11
    Doyle; 1
    Angel; 4
    Gunn; 3
    Fred; 3

    Notches on Fang Gang bedpost:
    Cordy: 5 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo+Connor plus possibly the Beast
    Angel: 6; Buffy, Darla, The Transcending Furies, Eve
    Wes; 3 definite; Virginia, the bleached blonde and Lilah, 1 possible, Justine
    Gunn; 2 Fred and Gwen.
    Fred; 1 Gunn
    Groo; 1Cordy
    Spike; 3-Buffy, Anya, Harmony

    Kinky dinky:
    Andrew refers to Fred as 'attractive slender woman'. Lorne calls his assistant to get the whip. Spike asks Andrew if he's ever tasted 'a penny' From The Big Bang Theory? (Thank you scrawny71 for pointing out that)

    Captain Subtext;
    Andrew says that Spike is beautiful and comments on his 'Viggo Mortenson' pecs. Spike calls Andrew a ponce.

    Know the face, different character; 5

    Parking garages;
    9,

    Guantanamo Bay;
    Andrew takes Dana into protective custody

    Buffy characters on Angel; 17 Andrew
    Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony. POSSIBLY The First Evil, Andrew.

    What the fanficcers thought;
     
    Missing scenes;

    Questions and observations;
    Note Dana marks herself just as the first Slayer did. Gunn of all people loves the system, very different from his first entry to WR&H in season 1. Note that some of Dana's drawing have the Shadowmen in it. When Dana speaks in Chinise Spike replies with the same words he said to the Chinise Slayer as he killed her. Wes is in touch with Giles (through his father if nothing else?). Spike jokes that Angel's worry is starting to make him look old, a comment in ageless vampire Angel starting to look a few years older. Irrelevant that Spike didn't torture Dana or kill her family because he did it to THOUSANDS of other people. Remember the little girl in the coal cellar? No one trusts Angel any more, he realises that he and Wes&co have cut themselves off from the other Scoobs.
    Buffy and Dawn are in Rome with Dawn going to an Italian school. The reason we saw so little Joyce in season 4 is that Kristine Sutherland was housesitting in Italy for a year in order to let her daughter go to school there and learn Italian. And now Joyce's daughters do the same which I suspect is a very clever inside joke. Andrew's remark of Buffy needing a break from California may be a reference to SMG needing a break from the character of Buffy. The various Scoobies are reassembling the Watcher's Council just as Wes' false dad said they were in Lineage.
    In 'Lies My Parent's Told Me' Spike goads Robin Wood that his mother never really loved him and put slaying first (in fairness to Spike Wood had just tried to kill him). Here we find that this wasn't true, she did love him, her last thought was her begging for Spike to spare her so that she could go back to her beloved son. In School Hard Spike tells Buffy that the last Slayer he killed begged for her life. In 'Fool for Love' he tells her how he killed her and she doesn't beg. Maybe she did beg, just not out loud?
    Dana dreams of previous Slayers just as Buffy did in the original movie.
    Spike and Angel both consider themselves to be monsters. They might be right. The scene between them is too wonderful for words. Love to see Dana in the comics some day, all cured. Episode 11, halfway through the final season.
    Marks out of 10; 8/10, strong ep but hard to watch. The final scene between Angel and Spike raises it up.
     
  6. DS9Continuing

    DS9Continuing Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Location:
    Manchester
    What on Earth is this supposed to mean? Surely you can't be suggesting that Spike is deliberately but pointlessly making a dirty joke based on the name of a character from a TV show that wasn't on the air until years after this episode?

    It's clearly a reference to the coppery taste of blood, and it's very odd that you would even think to imagine otherwise.
     
  7. saturn5

    saturn5 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2010
    Hey blame Scrawy71, not me!

    YOU'RE WELCOME
     
    The Good;
    EVERYTHING!
    The Bad;
    NOTHING! Well actually, Spike has met Doyle during 'In the dark' so why doesn't he recognise the significance of the name?
    Best line;
    CC; "You're welcome" (Could it be anything else?)
    also like;
    Angel (of Lindsey's new superpowers from Nepal) "They sell that crap at the airport"
    and
    CC (grabbing Eve by the hair) "Let's go Lilah junior"
    plus
    CC (to Lindsey)"Dinner and a show. And you're both!"
    Jeez, how did they get away with that?
    Poor old Lorne has to get bled to make the spell work. Plus slaughtered nuns (once upon a time just Angelus' thing)
    Apocalypses: 5
    Angel Cliches
    In disguise; 8
    DB/JM get's his shirt off; 18,
    Cheap Angel; 8
    Fang Gang in bondage:
    Cordy: 5
    Angel: 14
    Wes: 7
    Gunn; 7
    Lorne; 6
    Fred; 4
    Spike; 6

    Fang gang knocked out:
    Cordy: 15
    Angel: 19
    Wes: 8
    Doyle; 1
    Gunn; 3
    Lorne; 8
    Groo; 1
    Connor; 1
    Faith; 1
    Fred; 5
    Spike; 5
    Kills;
    Cordy: 5 vamps, 3½ demons
    Angel; 45 vamps, 62 and 1/2 demons, 5 zombies, 12 humans, one werewolf and one cyborg
    Doyle; 1 vamp
    Wes; 14 demons+5 vamps, 5 zombies, 3 humans, 2 cyborgs
    Kate; 3 vamps
    Faith; 18 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.
    Gunn; 11 vamps+ 13 demons, 5 zombies, 1 human.
    Groo; 1 demon
    Fred; 3 vamps+ 2 demon, 5 zombies
    Connor; 16 vamps, 5 zombies, 2 demons, Jasmine
    Spike; 21 vamps, 7 demons+1 human+one parasite
    Fang Gang go evil:
    Cordy: 3
    Angel: 3
    Gunn; 1
    Wes; 1

    Alternate Fang Gang;
    Cordy: 4
    Angel: 11
    Fred; 2
    Wes; 1
    Gunn; 1
    Connor; 1
    Lorne; 1

    Characters killed: poor nuns
    2270
    Recurring characters killed; alas poor Cordy, we've had her from the very first episode of Buffy all the way through to the last season of Angel (8 years and over 100 eps) and now we must say goodbye. The shallow bitch queen of Sunnydale High became the girl we loved and lost
    11
    Total number of Angel Investigations; 5, Spike now cut off from Lindsey/Doyle and drinking with the AI gang (as indeed is a lonely Harmony)
    Angel, Gunn, Fred, Lorne, Wes,

    Angel Investigations shot:
    Angel: 14
    Wes; 2
    Packing heat;
    Wes; 11
    Doyle; 1
    Angel; 4
    Gunn; 3
    Fred; 3

    Notches on Fang Gang bedpost:
    Cordy: 5 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo+Connor plus possibly the Beast
    Angel: 6; Buffy, Darla, The Transcending Furies, Eve
    Wes; 3 definite; Virginia, the bleached blonde and Lilah, 1 possible, Justine
    Gunn; 2 Fred and Gwen.
    Fred; 1 Gunn
    Groo; 1Cordy
    Spike; 3-Buffy, Anya, Harmony

    Kinky dinky:
    Eve hints that Angel really rocked her world during their sex in 'Life of the Party'.
    Captain Subtext;
    Eve remarks that Angel is still the centre of Lindsey's universe. Hmmm?
    Know the face, different character; 5
    Parking garages;
    9,
    Guantanamo Bay;
    Harmony beats up Eve but doesn't get to bite her. Eve seems to give up Lindsey very easily. Once again we have the strangely ambivalent attitude to torture we see in a lot of TV and movies
    Buffy characters on Angel; 17
    Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony. POSSIBLY The First Evil, Andrew.
    What the fanficcers thought;
    Read a lovely one where the last thing CC does is go to see Phantom Dennis, tells him she loves him and that it's time for them both to pass to the afterlife. And he does so they can be together forever. http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3044478/1/Whatever_happened_to_Phantom_Dennis Another familar theme is that Xander's attempts to reason with Willow at the end of Grave fail and DarkWillow either destroys the world or takes it over in partnership with The First Evil. Then Cordy appears to her and convinces her to set things right because SHE rather than Xander is the real love of Willow's life.
    [FONT=Times New Roman]Missing scenes; Interesting to watch the (eternally gorgeous!) CC in The Expendables where she plays a domestic violence victim. You rather get the idea that her character is attracted to violent men, Lee (Jason Satham's character) is little different from her new abusive boyfriend except that he focuses his violence and channels it into his work (much like Mack and Tiffy, my favourite characters in The Unit).
    [/FONT]Questions and observations;
    The critter in the tank is very reminiscent of the 4-5-6 we see in Torchwood; Children of Earth. Cordy joins Willow, Buffy, Giles, Angel, Spike, Dawn, Andrew and Riley as a Scooby bitten by a vampire. CC apologies to Wes for killing Lilah. Wes forgives her, possibly because of his own behaviour in 'Billy' and under Jasmine's influence. Nice joke on Hollywood that Conor Farrell (most overrated actor EVER?) is unknown to CC. We see Doyle again, all the more poignant as Glenn Quinn had died from a heroin overdose (with Andy Hallet also gone pretty soon they might start talking of the 'Curse of Angel') Episode 12 of season 5, only 10 eps of Angel left.
    Why not DB and CC on the commentary although Christian and Sarah do a great job. First appearance of Izzy the Devil who'll be more important later. Did Lindsey maybe bump into Oz during his travels in Nepal? He refers to Angel as Eurotrash, yeah pal, he's from where the history is from.
    Last scene is great and it's not suprise that the tears CC and DB cry are actually real, as were mine.
    The WB celebrate the 100th ep of Angel, a series that has run for 5 years and increased it's audience whilst slashing it's budget and has the 3rd bestselling DVDs in the US (Buffy no2, Band of Brothers no1). Then they cancel it. Then they go bust. Serves them right the morons!
    Marks out of 10; 10/10 (sob!)
     
  8. Skellington

    Skellington Part-time poltergeist Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2009
    Location:
    Dublin, Ireland
    Um, I think we have a misunderstanding here. This is what I posted when reading your review of the episode on Syfy Forums earlier this year:

    The Big Bang interpretation never occurred to me, probably 'coz I hadn't seen it yet. I perceived a somewhat different kind of sexual innuendo in the exchange. Let's just say that Spike might as well have said "You ever put a penny in your mouth?". :devil:
     
  9. AJBryant

    AJBryant Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2006
    Location:
    Indiana
    But I'm dying to say "Hoosier daddy!?" .... :devil:
     
  10. saturn5

    saturn5 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2010
    Then your smutty innuendo must be different to mine? (I'm beginning to feel like The Todd)

    Into single figures!

    WHY WE FIGHT

    The Good;
    Another wonderful Spike and Angel scene at the end, just as we saw in Damage. Once again past deeds come back to haunt us but this time it's what Angel did rather than what Angelus did. Also love Spike's 'Heil Hitler' salute to Angel and I think Eyal Podell does a great job as Lawson, he really looks like the naive all American poster boy (you could imagine him in Everwood or One Tree Hill or something) who is graphically confronted with the harsh realities of life.

    The Bad;
    Considering what badasses they're supposed to be Lawson overcomes AI very easily. Why do Spike and Lawson have to reach the shore before sunrise, can't they just hide underwater until night?

    Best line;
    Angel; "Spike's not in the SS, he just likes the coat"
    plus
    Spike; (of his fellow vamp prisoners) "Got to warn you, they're a bit stiff"
    also like;
    Nostroyev; (of Angelus) "You had quite the reputation back in the day but I haven't heard much of you lately"
    Angel; "I haven't heard much of you EVER!"

    Jeez, how did they get away with that?
    Gunn speculates that Lindsey is 'boiling in his own filth'? YUCK!

    Apocalypses: 5

    Angel Cliches

    In disguise; 8

    DB/JM get's his shirt off; 18,

    Cheap Angel; 8

    Fang Gang in bondage: Wes, Fred and Gunn all trussed up. Not Lorne though, because losing his head wouldn't kill him? Angel chained to a mess of weights
    Cordy: 5
    Angel: 15
    Wes: 8
    Gunn; 8
    Lorne; 6
    Fred; 5
    Spike; 6

    Fang gang knocked out: Wes, Fred and Gunn
    Cordy: 15
    Angel: 19
    Wes: 9
    Doyle; 1
    Gunn; 4
    Lorne; 8
    Groo; 1
    Connor; 1
    Faith; 1
    Fred; 6
    Spike; 5

    Kills; 3 vamps for Angel several decades apart. Will he make the magic 150 total of kills by the end of the series?
    Cordy: 5 vamps, 3½ demons
    Angel; 48 vamps, 62 and 1/2 demons, 5 zombies, 12 humans, one werewolf and one cyborg
    Doyle; 1 vamp
    Wes; 14 demons+5 vamps, 5 zombies, 3 humans, 2 cyborgs
    Kate; 3 vamps
    Faith; 18 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.
    Gunn; 11 vamps+ 13 demons, 5 zombies, 1 human.
    Groo; 1 demon
    Fred; 3 vamps+ 2 demon, 5 zombies
    Connor; 16 vamps, 5 zombies, 2 demons, Jasmine
    Spike; 21 vamps, 7 demons+1 human+one parasite
    Fang Gang go evil:
    Cordy: 3
    Angel: 3
    Gunn; 1
    Wes; 1

    Alternate Fang Gang;
    Cordy: 4
    Angel: 11
    Fred; 2
    Wes; 1
    Gunn; 1
    Connor; 1
    Lorne; 1

    Characters killed: poor subs crew
    2265

    Recurring characters killed;
    11

    Total number of Angel Investigations; 6, from now on I really consider Spike to an inseperable part of the gang
    Angel, Gunn, Fred, Lorne, Wes, Spike

    Angel Investigations shot:
    Angel: 14
    Wes; 2

    Packing heat;
    Wes; 11
    Doyle; 1
    Angel; 4
    Gunn; 3
    Fred; 3

    Notches on Fang Gang bedpost:
    Cordy: 5 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo+Connor plus possibly the Beast
    Angel: 6; Buffy, Darla, The Transcending Furies, Eve
    Wes; 3 definite; Virginia, the bleached blonde and Lilah, 1 possible, Justine
    Gunn; 2 Fred and Gwen.
    Fred; 1 Gunn
    Groo; 1Cordy
    Spike; 3-Buffy, Anya, Harmony

    Kinky dinky:
    Spike had been invited to a 'virgin bloodbath'...

    Captain Subtext;
    ...but when he got there the virgins all looked like Gobbels? Nostroyev was the lover of Rasputin. Hello sailor!
    Topical politcal comment on the War on Terror? This ep really deals with the moral compromises inherent in warfare, Lawson seems unable to accept that the US would do things like torture, use the supernatural for it's own ends and make alliances with evil people (like Stalin?) for the greater good. And yet here we do, Angel siring him to save the crew and help the war effort and then letting him and Spike go, responsible for the deaths of all they killed in the meantime. An obvious but powerful allegory to AI joining WR&H. It's a tribute to the power of the writing that there is no easy answer to all this, we don't know who's right or wrong, sometimes there are no easy options.
    When Fred complains that Knox messed up an experiment Wes emphatically agrees that Knox is unreliable.

    Know the face, different character; 6 Camden Toy who plays the Prince of Lies was also Gnarl and the Turok-Han on Buffy.

    Parking garages;
    9,

    Guantanamo Bay;
    Need info? Torture a Nazi! See Captain subtext. Lawson comments that you win wars by not doing whatever it takes but by doing what's right. Tell that to the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki or all those folks in Eastern Europe we sold down the river to Stalin.

    Buffy characters on Angel; 17
    Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony. POSSIBLY The First Evil, Andrew.

    What the fanficcers thought; .
    Plenty of stuff regarding Angel's missing years as indeed we also see in the comics with Angel during the Great War also travelling on a German U-boat and bumping into a Watcher called Colonel Wyndham-Pryce on the Western front.
    Remember a way out there fic where following the events of 'Get it Done' Buffy is sent by the Shadowmen back through time to Sunnydale by inhabiting the bodies of all the other Slayers throught history Quantum Leap style and gaining power by enjoying their greatest sexual experience. In World War 2 the Slayer is a fervent Nazi and willing leather clad breeding slave to a mad German scientist trying to create a race of supersoldiers. However when his captive vamps escape her Slayer instincts kick in and she rescues the prisoners at the nearby concentration camp and helps them escape to America, including one grandma Rosenberg.

    Missing scenes;

    Questions and observations;
    Maybe Buffy's theory about Rasputin wasn't so far off the mark after all? So if you get sired by a vampire with a soul you're still evil but you feel guilty about it? Does sound like a rough deal. Gunn begins to demonstrate his loss of his newly acquired abilities. Spike sings the contemporary British National Anthem 'God save the king' (which would be George the 6th). Good to see he and Angel are still patriots even if they are undead. It seems the Initiative have been around in one form or another for a long time (like Torchwood?). What a shame they couldn't have named some of the goverment men Mulder or called an agent who chainsmokes Morely cigarettes Spender, that would have been so cool. Like The Master and Khakistos the Prince of Lies seems to be gradually devolving into a Turok-Han, the older a vamp get's the more that seems to happen to them. Note when Spike is first captured by the Intiative in season 4 of Buffy he speculates that it's the Nazis who are behind it, stemming from his experience here. Note we have Angel still in his recluse phase (as we'll see in Have you now or ever have been?) and not yet a crusader against evil, he just wants to brood and only does the mission as he feels responsible for Spike. Spike's small boys delight in seeing a submarine once against casts him in the little brother role to Angel(us). No Harmony, who get's to clock off on time on a Friday night unlike the executives.
     
    What is it about the Nazi era that still fascinates us half a century later? History TV channels screen so many documentaries on the Nazis they may as well be called the Nazi channel. Practically every popular TV/film series will do some form of Nazi themed ep in it's time (Raiders of the Lost Ark, The Last Crusade, The Boys from Brazil, Bear Island, The X-files, The X-men, Xena, Battlestar Galactica, Tarzan, Wonder Woman, The Odessa File, The Sum of All Fears, The New Avengers, The Tomorrow People, Dr Who, Lois and Clark, even Father Ted off the top of my head). Politicians and the media regularly hurl the term Nazi at each other as an insult. Even Quentin Tarantino feels the need to do a WW2 film with Hitler as a character. New books on the subject are published every week.
    Communism is arguably an even more repellent regime, Nazi Germany for all it's abhorent evil never had to prevent it's population leaving in peacetime. The individual in Nazi Germany actually enjoyed more freedom than they did under Stalin. And he certainly killed far more people. Yet you walk down the street with a hammer and sickle no one bats an eye. Try it with a Swastika?
    So what's the fascination? Is it that they are just so out and out the epitome of comic book bad guys? As Mitchell and Webb pointed out they even have black uniforms with skulls on them (communism is extremely humanitarian in theory, it just falls down in practice). WW2 is often referred to as the last good war, the clearly morally superior allies against the indisputibly evil axis (although with Stalin on our side you wonder if that's actually true?). Is it their larger than life villainy with hints of sci-fi and fantasy, inventing ahead of their time wonder weapons with extreme (mad?) science and fascinated with the occult?
    Could it be as simple as how they dress? As Gabrielle once said 'Some guys (and girls) just love the leather'. Certainly Spike seems to think so. Lost count of the number of fanfics (and even lovingly crafted fan art web comics) where Wonder Woman becomes a Nazi sex breeding slave, sometimes willingly, sometimes not. An essential part of each fic is the modification/fetishfication of her outfit, red, white and blue, stars and stripes, go-go boots and lasso becoming lots of black and red leather/PVC, swastikas, spike-heeled black thigh boots and whip (don't worry she always overcomes in the end, her children rebel and rescue her or everyone falls in love with her and let's her go etc. My favourite is where she turns around at the end and goes "Well actually I'm jewish" and that's pretty much the end for the third reich, the regime is dismantled and she and Hitler set up house in rural Austria where he quietly lives out his life as an obscure painter). Is it just the power of their instantly recognisable iconography (kinda tough on the Swastika which is used in Hinduism, Bhudism and even by the ancient Greeks, actually makes sense for Amazon Wonder Woman to have them on her outfit). Think of Star Wars with it's serried ranks of identical 'stormtroopers' and Darth Vaders blacker than black futuristic Gestapo gear or the Daleks with their screeching hysterical voices and obsession with racial purity.
    Or is the idea that it could ever happen again, all those Nazis who fled to South America or Southern Ireland with their stolen fortunes and technology, just biding their time for their revenge.
    Why are we still obsessed with it all? Will we ever put it behind us? Or is it similar to our fascination with vampires? Power, seduction and the purity of evil? Do we find them sexy? (certainly Max Mosely does) Of course Angel gives us Nazi Vampires so we have both combined not to mention The Scourge with all their Nazi imagery.
    Marks out of 10; 8/10, a good ep, pretty much 'In the bottle' or should that be 'In the sub'. With Angel's reduced budget this year they tend to go for a lot eps just confined to the WR&H set (Harm's Way, Life of the Party) or other stuff that's lying around the studio.
     
  11. saturn5

    saturn5 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2010
    Now here's a crowdpleaser!
    SMILE TIME

    The Good;
    It's all fabulous, a truly, truly great episode and I'm proud to say I do own a puppet Angel doll (unfortunately the one with him in vampface as all the rest were sold out).
    The Bad;
    ?
    Best line;
    Polo; "I'm going to tear you a new puppet-hole bitch!" (a line never before said on TV and in all probability never will be again)
    also like;
    Puppet Angel; "I'm made of felt. And my nose comes off!" (as above)
    Jeez, how did they get away with that?
    The bit where the puppets make their creator 'talk to the hand', euugghhh!
    Apocalypses: 5
    Angel Cliches
    Subverting the Hollywood cliche;
    Cute children's puppets are EVIL! Also like the talk between Gunn and Lorne with Framkin where he correctly points out that actually the public would invariably support him if their case ever came to trial. Puppet Angel's Jerry Bruckheimer style 'power walk' also hilarious.
    In disguise; 8
    DB/JM get's his shirt off; 18,
    Cheap Angel; 8
    Fang Gang in bondage:
    Cordy: 5
    Angel: 15
    Wes: 8
    Gunn; 8
    Lorne; 6
    Fred; 5
    Spike; 6

    Fang gang knocked out: Angel by the nest egg
    Cordy: 15
    Angel: 20
    Wes: 9
    Doyle; 1
    Gunn; 4
    Lorne; 8
    Groo; 1
    Connor; 1
    Faith; 1
    Fred; 6
    Spike; 5
    Kills; 1 demon for Angel, 2 for Gunn and 1 for Wes
    Cordy: 5 vamps, 3½ demons
    Angel; 48 vamps, 63 and 1/2 demons, 5 zombies, 12 humans, one werewolf and one cyborg
    Doyle; 1 vamp
    Wes; 15 demons+5 vamps, 5 zombies, 3 humans, 2 cyborgs
    Kate; 3 vamps
    Faith; 18 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.
    Gunn; 11 vamps+ 15 demons, 5 zombies, 1 human.
    Groo; 1 demon
    Fred; 3 vamps+ 2 demon, 5 zombies
    Connor; 16 vamps, 5 zombies, 2 demons, Jasmine
    Spike; 21 vamps, 7 demons+1 human+one parasite
    Fang Gang go evil:
    Cordy: 3
    Angel: 3
    Gunn; 1
    Wes; 1

    Alternate Fang Gang; puppet Angel
    Cordy: 4
    Angel: 12
    Fred; 2
    Wes; 1
    Gunn; 1
    Connor; 1
    Lorne; 1

    Characters killed:
    2265
    Recurring characters killed;
    11
    Total number of Angel Investigations; 6,
    Angel, Gunn, Fred, Lorne, Wes, Spike

    Angel Investigations shot:
    Angel: 14
    Wes; 2
    Packing heat;
    Fred uses one of Wes' 45s to good effect (maybe they've learned their lesson from Lineage?). She's a good shot but then she is from Texas.
    Wes; 11
    Doyle; 1
    Angel; 4
    Gunn; 3
    Fred; 4

    Notches on Fang Gang bedpost:
    Cordy: 5 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo+Connor plus possibly the Beast
    Angel: 6; Buffy, Darla, The Transcending Furies, Eve
    Wes; 3 definite; Virginia, the bleached blonde and Lilah, 1 possible, Justine
    Gunn; 2 Fred and Gwen.
    Fred; 1 Gunn
    Groo; 1Cordy
    Spike; 3-Buffy, Anya, Harmony

    Kinky dinky:
    Nina and Angel start to grow closer and closer. Naked Nina in her cell showing an awful lot of flesh after returning to human once more "Oh my god, I ate him!" Hmmmmm? Flora the puppet says she wants to get Gunn's 'Pretty eyes'. Fred thinks puppet Angel is cute. Nina seems to now enjoy being naked and locked in a cage. She thinks the whole vampire thing is kinda sexy although she admits that's a cliche for an art-school chick.
    Polo's line to the little kid 'Get over here and touch it' is a bit suspect especially the way he moans and groans when he's draining the lifeforce and talks about taking their innocence away.
    Captain Subtext;
    Angel has been utterly oblivious to Nina's growing attraction to him but it's perfectly plain to everyone else, even souless Harmony. He does however pick up on the Wes/Fred vibe.
    Know the face, different character; 7 David Fury, writer, producer, director and now actor. He previously played the goat-sacrificer in Epiphany and the mustard on his shirt guy in Once More with Feeling.
    Parking garages;
    9,
    Guantanamo Bay;
    Buffy characters on Angel; 17
    Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony. POSSIBLY The First Evil, Andrew.
    What the fanficcers thought; .
    People being transformed by curses all the rage in the Buffyverse.[FONT=Arial] I remember one where a pseudo Buffy/Dawn (Fluffy and Kelly or something?) are prematurely aged by a demons curse but in the follow up story they touch each other and the magical link between them restores their youth whilst draining the lifeforce from the demon. They then stick him in an old folks home and occasionally pop in to tease him (you really can't write a darkfic that there isn't a happy ending to). Also of course in season 8 Dawn become a giant/living doll/centaur although frankly I think the latter was just an excuse to draw topless pictures of Michelle Tractenberg.
    [/FONT]Missing scenes;
    Questions and observations;
    Especially love the way that Horatio can convey whole sentences in just a few sounds, Chewbacca style. Also you note that Groofus is beginning to be more and more won over to humanity (a common theme in Buffy/Angel), actually caring about the quality of the show in addition to their soul-sucking. David Fury is pretty good in his role. Fred shoots down Knox whom as we'll see doesn't take rejection well. It's been 4 months since Unleashed. Puppet Angel does pretty well against Spike. The last few seasons of Happy Days are referenced where Fonzie famously 'jumped the shark' (a sly joke for the Angel audience and critics who might think Angel is past it's best? Or the WB executives?) In an otherwise extremely lightweight episode we have the beginning of the fall of Charles Gunn, the senior partners having given him these new abilities he revels in and then forcing him to make moral compromises when they start slipping away from him.
    Presumably the camera crews etc we see are actually the real Angel camera crews? Why no commentary?
    Marks out of 10; 10/10, it's eps like these that make Buffy and Angel so special.
     
  12. Skellington

    Skellington Part-time poltergeist Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2009
    Location:
    Dublin, Ireland
    SMILE TIME.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    In addition to Nina's "Oh my God, I ate him!" I like the above and Fred's "That was a signal.".
    [​IMG]
    More caps for this episode here.
     
  13. saturn5

    saturn5 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2010
    Just watching you screencaps makes me laugh out loud!:lol:
     
  14. saturn5

    saturn5 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2010
    A HOLE IN THE WORLD
     
    The Good;
    Some very worthy stuff here, lovely Spike/Angel and Fred/Wes stuff. Gunn starts to realise the price he's paid for his mind upgrade. Especially love the moment when Fred sings and Lorne reacts, reading her future.
    The Bad;
    The White Room scene seems very unnecessary
    Best line; has to be;
    Fred; "Wesley, why can't I stay?"
    Jeez, how did they get away with that?
    Considering what happened to Glenn Quinn the Burkles remarks about 'Junkie movie stars' are a little tasteless. Also Wes kneecapping the guy who just wanted his fax. Needless to say, hard to watch Fred suffer.
    Apocalypses: 5
    Angel Cliches
    Subverting the Hollywood cliche;
    Fred isn't concerned by the sword sticking through Angel but wants the specimen on it
    In disguise; 8
    DB/JM get's his shirt off; 18,
    Cheap Angel; 8
    Fang Gang in bondage:
    Cordy: 5
    Angel: 15
    Wes: 8
    Gunn; 8
    Lorne; 6
    Fred; 5
    Spike; 6

    Fang gang knocked out: Fred passes out
    Cordy: 15
    Angel: 20
    Wes: 9
    Doyle; 1
    Gunn; 4
    Lorne; 8
    Groo; 1
    Connor; 1
    Faith; 1
    Fred; 7
    Spike; 5
    Kills; going to let Fred go out with a bang and give her a dozen demon babies from the nest. Also one for Wes and one for Spike. 4 of Drogyn's demon guards each for Spike and Angel.
    Cordy: 5 vamps, 3½ demons
    Angel; 48 vamps, 67 and 1/2 demons, 5 zombies, 12 humans, one werewolf and one cyborg
    Doyle; 1 vamp
    Wes; 16 demons+5 vamps, 5 zombies, 3 humans, 2 cyborgs
    Kate; 3 vamps
    Faith; 18 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.
    Gunn; 11 vamps+ 15 demons, 5 zombies, 1 human.
    Groo; 1 demon
    Fred; 3 vamps+ 14 demons, 5 zombies
    Connor; 16 vamps, 5 zombies, 2 demons, Jasmine
    Spike; 21 vamps, 12 demons+1 human+one parasite
    Fang Gang go evil:
    Cordy: 3
    Angel: 3
    Gunn; 1
    Wes; 1

    Alternate Fang Gang; Fred to Illyria
    Cordy: 4
    Angel: 12
    Fred; 3
    Wes; 1
    Gunn; 1
    Connor; 1
    Lorne; 1

    Characters killed:
    2265
    Recurring characters killed; goodbye Fred, liked you but never loved you as I did say Willow. Still, sad to see you go.
    12
    Total number of Angel Investigations; 5,
    Angel, Gunn, Lorne, Wes, Spike

    Angel Investigations shot:
    Angel: 14
    Wes; 2
    Packing heat; literally as here we have Fred as Ripley (before Alien3 ruined the series) packing a flamethrower whilst Wes has his shotgun and a 45 later
    Wes; 12
    Doyle; 1
    Angel; 4
    Gunn; 3
    Fred; 5

    Notches on Fang Gang bedpost: Do Wes and Fred have sex? She implies he's never been there before, do they have sex? Maybe
    Cordy: 5 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo+Connor plus possibly the Beast
    Angel: 6; Buffy, Darla, The Transcending Furies, Eve
    Wes; 3 definite; Virginia, the bleached blonde and Lilah, 2 possible, Justine, Fred
    Gunn; 2 Fred and Gwen.
    Fred; 1 Gunn, 1 possible Wes
    Groo; 1Cordy
    Spike; 3-Buffy, Anya, Harmony

    Kinky dinky:
    Fred hints she's had group sex with the varsity lacrosse team. She says she's joking but you know she was doing a lot of weed back then. Fred is in effect orally raped by the essence of Illyria which then gestates inside her, taking over her body (again, very like Aliens)
    Captain Subtext;
    Spike; "You think we should annoy other people?" Couple or what? Spike thinks James Bond's tux is poncey. Say that to his face? Angel doesn't know about Wes/Fred just as he didn't know about Fred/Gunn. Spike and Angel hold hands, hmmmm? They refer to St Petersberg where Anyanka and Halfyrek also hung out, wonder if it was at the same time?
    Know the face, different character; 7
    Parking garages;
    9,
    Guantanamo Bay;
    Lorne hits Eve. Didn't see that coming just as Lindsey won't in NFA
    Buffy characters on Angel; 17
    Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony. POSSIBLY The First Evil, Andrew.
    What the fanficcers thought; .
    Missing scenes;
    According to the commentary this show was very long so plenty of scenes to be restored on a DVD extra
    Questions and observations;
    For my money the astronauts win, they've everything the cavemen have plus science and technology. Lots of Aliens imagery, Fred with a flamethrower, the critters at the beginning, even the 'cow-pat' emblem on the sarcophagus looks a bit like a facehugger curled up. Lovely Wes and Gunn moment over Fred, Gunn almost has you going for a bit. Knox is also very believable. Is Fred mesmerised by the sarcophagus crystal as Buffy was in Helpless? Spike and Angel have never flown in a plane before and seem nervous about it. Their bonding on the plane is lovely. They speak of returning to the UK as the mother country, obviously a long time since they've been home. Spike didn't like Les Mis, neither did I, rather see Wicked again. Like Dianne Warren though and I think secretly Gunn does too.
    Marks out of 10; 8/10 good ep but hard to watch
     
  15. Skellington

    Skellington Part-time poltergeist Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2009
    Location:
    Dublin, Ireland
    A HOLE IN THE WORLD.
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    I found that bit funny. Spike is just having a laugh, of course. Well, probably.

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    Double-dating? But I'm nearly sure that Spike and Anya were never an item before Entropy, so...
    Er, okay, time to move on.

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    I concur about the astronauts winning; they would be physically fit, well fed, highly trained, ambitious and versatile. (NB - This doesn't apply to Battlestar Galactica. We all know how that turned out. :) )

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    Well, Spike does. The UK was created in 1801, so technically Angel was never a British subject. Could be that Spike is teasing him. Wait, here we go with that innuendo thing again...
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    A Hole In The World is, amongst other things, visually a very striking episode with less of the usual rough-and-tumble and more of the two-handers and tracking shots; really good for screencaps in addition to being funny, clever and poignant.

    Incidentally,like many other Angel stories this one has been adapted to the comic book medium.
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  16. DS9Continuing

    DS9Continuing Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Location:
    Manchester
    A quick off-topic posting to mention that I just shared a flight from Heathrow to Vancouver with Mark Lutz, aka the Groosalugg.

    He was, naturally, gorgeous. :drool:

    I tried following him into the bathroom in the arrivals hall, but alas I did not manage to see anything interesting. :(
     
  17. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2000
    Location:
    QC, IL, USA
    Man, I LOVE this episode and the one that follows. It absolutely breaks my heart to see Fred die, but I love that Amy Acker wasn't removed from the show. I enjoy her portrayal of Illyria almost as much as Fred.
     
  18. saturn5

    saturn5 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2010
    Yeah met Mark Lutz at a convention and one handsome guy. Didn't follow him to the bathroom though which I consider a little bit stalkerish...

    Actually the UK starts to take shape with England and Wales as a joint kingdom (which is why the cross of St George on the Union flag represents both). Scotland joins at the beginning of the C18th having had a joint monarchy with England from James 1st and the Irish Parliament votes for full union at the beginning of the C19th. So as you say Liam became Angelus BEFORE the formal union but they're both from the British Isles and would have had a couple of centuries to adapt to their new national identity



    SHELLS
     
    The Good;
    Great battles and some real heartbreak for Wes and Gunn. Also like the skeleton key gag.
    The Bad;
    Why do Wes and co keep attacking Illyria with swords etc when his axe just shatters off her head in the opening scene? Illyria mispronounces 'Offal'. The ending is perhaps a little overly maudlin compared to 'You're welcome'.
    Best line;
    Harmony; "Sorry boss, if I'd have stopped her in Gunn's office..."
    Angel; "Did you get chucked out a window?"
    Harmony; "No"
    Angel; "Then you're one up on me!"
    Jeez, how did they get away with that?
    Wes stabs Gunn
    Apocalypses: 5
    Angel Cliches
    Subverting the Hollywood cliche;
    Illyria; "My last high priest was taller"
    plus Angel doing his 'save humanity' speech only for Wes to give Knox some Frank Castle style therapy with his Colt 45 (and I'm not talking about the beer!)
    In disguise; 8
    DB/JM get's his shirt off; 18,
    Cheap Angel; 8
    Fang Gang in bondage:
    Cordy: 5
    Angel: 15
    Wes: 8
    Gunn; 8
    Lorne; 6
    Fred; 5
    Spike; 6

    Fang gang knocked out: Wes by Illyria
    Cordy: 15
    Angel: 20
    Wes: 10
    Doyle; 1
    Gunn; 4
    Lorne; 8
    Groo; 1
    Connor; 1
    Faith; 1
    Fred; 7
    Spike; 5
    Kills; Wes kills Knox
    Cordy: 5 vamps, 3½ demons
    Angel; 48 vamps, 67 and 1/2 demons, 5 zombies, 12 humans, one werewolf and one cyborg
    Doyle; 1 vamp
    Wes; 16 demons+5 vamps, 5 zombies, 4 humans, 2 cyborgs
    Kate; 3 vamps
    Faith; 18 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.
    Gunn; 11 vamps+ 15 demons, 5 zombies, 1 human.
    Groo; 1 demon
    Fred; 3 vamps+ 14 demons, 5 zombies
    Connor; 16 vamps, 5 zombies, 2 demons, Jasmine
    Spike; 21 vamps, 12 demons+1 human+one parasite
    Fang Gang go evil:
    Cordy: 3
    Angel: 3
    Gunn; 1
    Wes; 1

    Alternate Fang Gang;
    Cordy: 4
    Angel: 12
    Fred; 3
    Wes; 1
    Gunn; 1
    Connor; 1
    Lorne; 1

    Characters killed:
    2265
    Recurring characters killed;
    12
    Total number of Angel Investigations; 5,
    Angel, Gunn, Lorne, Wes, Spike

    Angel Investigations shot: although it's a wonder, they run in front of their SWAT team's guns?
    Angel: 14
    Wes; 2
    Packing heat; Wes armed to the hilt this ep
    Wes; 13
    Doyle; 1
    Angel; 4
    Gunn; 3
    Fred; 5

    Notches on Fang Gang bedpost:
    Cordy: 5 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo+Connor plus possibly the Beast
    Angel: 6; Buffy, Darla, The Transcending Furies, Eve
    Wes; 3 definite; Virginia, the bleached blonde and Lilah, 2 possible, Justine, Fred
    Gunn; 2 Fred and Gwen.
    Fred; 1 Gunn, 1 possible Wes
    Groo; 1Cordy
    Spike; 3-Buffy, Anya, Harmony

    Kinky dinky:
    Knox's mum thought he was reading porn. Let this be a lesson to us all, let your children read porn otherwise they'll turn into the crazed acolyte of an ancient demon warrior-goddess who plots to destroy humanity. Illyria strips in front of Knox. Spike agrees Harmony has a degree in tearing things up, his back? Angel refers to Jasmine violating CC. Harmony fancied Knox.
    Captain Subtext;
    Harmony has great insight for a vamp, telling Wes the girl of his dreams loved him. She also comments that Knox's Rick Springfield screensaver opens a whole new bunch of questions.
    Know the face, different character; 7
    Parking garages;
    9,
    Guantanamo Bay;
    Everyone tortures everyone else, it's the Spanish inquisition! Love the way Wes is glad that Knox is tortured even before he knows Knox is a traitor.
    Buffy characters on Angel; 17
    Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony. POSSIBLY The First Evil, Andrew.
    What the fanficcers thought; .
    Missing scenes;
    Questions and observations;
    Note the weapons lined up by Fred's bedside. Harmony talks of her 'pound of flesh', a term from The Merchant of Venice which also features a climactic courtroom scene. Lornes isolation gradually growing. Willow is in Tibet, looking up Oz? Wes comments "Never a witch around when you need one", his wife of course Alysson Hannigan. 'Old ones' very Babylon 5 term. Note with the exception of Harmony who isn't part of AI Angel is now an all-male production? Is Fred's soul actually destroyed? Is that possible?
    Knox comments that humans have conquered demons through opposable thumbs, fire, TV and sneakiness. Guess that settles the whole astronauts vs cavemen debate, the astronauts win out. Illyria know's WR&H of old? She could be a mine of info on them. Do you think she knew Glory too? She learns the hard way that the ravages of time wait for no man and can even bring a goddess to her knees. We see Wes pack away Fred's Roy Rogers commemorative plate which she mentioned to Knox about in an earlier ep. AI seems to rapidly be becoming the place for people with nowhere else to go. Harmony makes herself incredibly useful in this ep, even figuring out the cellphone messages.
    Marks out of 10; 8/10
     
  19. Skellington

    Skellington Part-time poltergeist Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2009
    Location:
    Dublin, Ireland
    Dang! Well, you know what I meant.
     
  20. DS9Continuing

    DS9Continuing Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Location:
    Manchester
    Says the guy with the rape fantasy obsession.

    Anyway, I prefer to think of it as merely being thorough. :cool: