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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

View Poll Results: What is wrong with "Genesis"?
It's science is flawed - (d)evolution doesn't work like that 14 22.58%
I am a creationist - (d)evolution is a falsehood 2 3.23%
It is simply a rubbish episode 13 20.97%
I love it 33 53.23%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

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Old September 19 2013, 11:34 PM   #46
MikeS
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Re: The hate at "Genesis"

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
what if in an episode Picard just snapped his fingers, grew wings, and then started riding a magical pony through the galaxy.
That would have made the premise of a great episode/two-parter!
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Old September 19 2013, 11:35 PM   #47
Admiral2
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Re: The hate at "Genesis"

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
TNG had some flaws but its message was not among them. It's a little sick that "Mankind may not be inherently violent, greedy and awful" is considered preachy and arrogant.
It's preachy when the end to violence means doing things like leaving your citizens at the mercy of your enemies (Fed colonists in the demilitarized zone), revealing military secrets to your enemies (namely the creation of a fed phasing cloak) or having to beg more violent races to do your fighting for you when violence actually becomes necesary (the dominion war). It's arrogant when your method of eliminating greed is eliminating money completely and creating a galactic nanny state. (We're taking away money and giving you replicators because we know what's best for you.)

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Things should at least make sense, be consistent and, well, not fall apart when thought about for more than a moment. I mean what if in an episode Picard just snapped his fingers, grew wings, and then started riding a magical pony through the galaxy. Hey, who cares as long as it entertains!
But that's our point. Every series of Trek has had episodes with situations that are just as stupid. Kirk and company confronted a solar-system sized amoeba. Ent-D had a baby. A runabout in DS9 got shrunk down to a christmas tree ornament. Janeway and paris turned into monitor lizards and had little monitor lizards. T'Pol turned into a drug addict by shooting up a molten alien alloy.

Gene Roddenberry once said "make it about the characters", and trek writers then and since have mostly taken that to mean "Hey, it really doesn't have to make sense. it's about the characters."

And if Picard grew wings and flew a magical pony around the galaxy i'd just call the kids from the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon because that would make him Venger 2.0.

Being entertaining isn't a blank-check to do whatever the hell you want. You have to at least have it make sense and, ideally, an impact.
But making it about the characters is that blank check, as I've just described.

I'll accept a "virus" or other infection that can "de-evolve" people (or I guess more accurately mutate people into animals by scrambling DNA.) But it becomes harder and harder to accept it when you forget such an idea has consequences.

Which is this episode's biggest problem. It completely ignores the consequences this thing would have. Like I said up-thread there are civilians and children on the ship. De-evolved too. This de-evolution reduced the sizes of people's brains. Stuff you just don't "get back."
And it's not the first time trek characters have avoided serious consequences. Eliminating a consequence is the sole reason The Search For Spock was made!

But the biggest thing is the humor moment at the end of episode that completely shrugs away everything that happened. Beverly's reconstructive surgery, Worf and Riker killing people, that people ARE dead. That this incident must have had some impact on the children and civilians on the ship but, no, we just have a funny little laugh and forget about all of that.
Look, all you're doing is complaining about stuff that exists franchise-wide, not just in this episode. Once you realize that, you should easily be able to take the ep for what it is, a fun next generation horror movie.
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Last edited by Admiral2; September 19 2013 at 11:58 PM.
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Old September 20 2013, 04:02 PM   #48
Hober Mallow
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Re: The hate at "Genesis"

Admiral2 wrote: View Post
But making it about the characters is that blank check, as I've just described.
"Genesis" doesn't work on any level, science or character. As already pointed out, even ignoring the laugh-out-loud so-called science the entire story hinges upon, the characters act like idiots. There are some TNG episodes I could think of that I think are good character episodes, but "Genesis" ain't one of them. I'm hard-pressed to think how "Genesis" could even be considered a good character episode.

Look, all you're doing is complaining about stuff that exists franchise-wide, not just in this episode.
The bad stuff that exists franchise-wide doesn't make "Genesis" any better.

Once you realize that, you should easily be able to take the ep for what it is, a fun next generation horror movie.
It doesn't even make a good horror movie, unless me laughing at the TV screen is the sign of a good horror movie.
KaraBear wrote: View Post
isn't the point of tv to entertain? if the science isn't comletly accurate who cares?
Well, I suppose the episode is entertaining in a MST3K kind of way.
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Old September 21 2013, 05:07 PM   #49
Peach Wookiee
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Re: The hate at "Genesis"

MikeS wrote: View Post
Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
what if in an episode Picard just snapped his fingers, grew wings, and then started riding a magical pony through the galaxy.
That would have made the premise of a great episode/two-parter!
Ladies and gentlemen, the My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic Season 5 opening two-parter!
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Old September 21 2013, 05:27 PM   #50
R. Star
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Re: The hate at "Genesis"

Wonder a wonderful way to tie up the whole saddle subplot.
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Old September 21 2013, 08:35 PM   #51
FreddyE
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Re: The hate at "Genesis"

Concerning the lack of consequences...

Come on, how many TNG episodes did actually HAVE lasting consequences after the episode itself?

Examples:

Data loses his child. When he got the emotion chip, why didn´t we see sadness about loosing her? No we get an out of place "it´s green" joke instead...

Picard and Crusher shared a telepathic bond and we see a romance forming that....is pretty much forgotten right the next episode.

Picard is assimilated and brought back. Doesn´t seem like this affected any of the crew members...

The episode where Troi loses her emphatic abilities...this should have created a long lasting trauma for her...she f-ing lost part of what forms her beeing.
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Old September 21 2013, 09:56 PM   #52
T'Girl
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Re: The hate at "Genesis"

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
The bad stuff that exists franchise-wide doesn't make "Genesis" any better.
But it does make Genesis "typical."

Admiral2 wrote: View Post
A runabout in DS9 got shrunk down to a christmas tree ornament.
Coincidentally available in Hallmark stores in time for the Holidays?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
What, I'm responsible for the violent death of Ensign Noname?
Except they weren't responsible, they were under the influence of the "T-Cell" infection. When it comes to the deaths aboard the ship, the only responsible party was Doctor Crusher.

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Evolution goes in the direction that increases survival and reproduction odds at the time in the environment you're in. It's not some predetermined track.
The episode The Chase says otherwise, "evolution" in the Star Trek universe, the development of intelligent lifeforms, was predetermined.

TNG had some flaws but its message was not among them. It's a little sick that "Mankind may not be inherently violent, greedy and awful" is considered preachy and arrogant.
TOS did it much better, Humans didn't "evolve" somehow in to completely different people psychologically. We were still inherently violent (but won't kill today), greedy (wealthy miners), and occasional awful (we'll kill half the population, so the other half won't starve).

This episode, however, was badly written and badly staged.
It was interestingly written, and I thought the staging was creepy in a good way.

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
But how does Barclay "devolve" into a spider?
Miles O'Brien had a pet tarantula named Christine, Barclay interacted with it a little over a year before Genesis, this might in some way have influenced his change into a spider. Maybe it bit him at some point.

Spider spit.

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Individuals do not evolve, species do. Over the course of EONS.
That not completely true, evolution includes not just adaptation but also mutation and other mechanisms too. It is possible for mutation to occur within an individual, and so individuals can in fact evolve.



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Old September 21 2013, 11:05 PM   #53
MikeS
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Re: The hate at "Genesis"

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Individuals do not evolve, species do. Over the course of EONS.
That not completely true, evolution includes not just adaptation but also mutation and other mechanisms too. It is possible for mutation to occur within an individual, and so individuals can in fact evolve.
At the risk of picking nits (I agree with most of what you have to say ) This last statement is half true. Individuals mutate, species evolve.
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Old September 22 2013, 07:03 PM   #54
Hober Mallow
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Re: The hate at "Genesis"

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Except they weren't responsible, they were under the influence of the "T-Cell" infection. When it comes to the deaths aboard the ship, the only responsible party was Doctor Crusher.
That was exactly my point. Dr. Crusher, who ends the episode cracking jokes.
KaraBear wrote: View Post
if I really wanted a science lesson I would watch a documentary, not a science FICTION tv show
You misunderstand what science fiction is and what it's not. There must be some standard for the science of the story, otherwise it's not science fiction; it's fantasy. But even fantasy must have some logic and consistency to it.

I just happened to read this bit from Isaac Asimov in his book, "Magic," and immediately thought of the above quote in this thread. It concerns the fallout from Asimov's panning "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" for its bad science and faulty logic.
...one and all, they came down to the same plaintive cry, "Why do you criticize its lack of science, Dr. Asimov? It's just science fiction."

God, how that stings! I've spent a lifetime loving science fiction, and now I find that you must expect nothing of something that's just science fiction.

It's just science fiction so it's allowed to be silly, and childish, and stupid. It's just science fiction so it doesn't have to make sense. It's just science fiction, so you must ask nothing more of it than loud noise and flashing lights.

That's the harm of Close Encounters: that it convinces tens of millions that that's what just science fiction is
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Old October 4 2013, 04:56 AM   #55
GalaxyX
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Re: The hate at "Genesis"

C_Miller wrote: View Post
I don't love the episode, but I don't hate it. It scared the crap out of my seven year old self when it first aired. I couldn't watch it until many years later. So for that, it kind of does have a special place in my memory.
It's interesting what things can scare us when we're kids.

I think my first exposure to TNG was when I was 8 years old, and it was a shot from "A Measure of a Man" when Riker was snapping Data's arm off to prove he's a machine.

I didn't understand what Data was, all I know is that as a kid, I saw a big bearded guy snap the arm off another guy, and it was robotic.

That scared the shit outta me.
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