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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old September 28 2014, 05:40 PM   #61
MacLeod
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Location: Great Britain
Re: If DS9 was produced today

He'sDeadJim wrote: View Post
Good God this is wrong on so many levels.

Who does the world seek out for help when there's:
Famine
Flood
Disease
Earthquakes

the United States...

Who has Europe called for help when the forces of Totalitarianism threatened?

You know the answer.

Ppl bitching about the US should look at our history and how good we have been to the world in the past 200+ years.
Where was the USA when Hitler was marching through Europe? It was content to sit by on the sidelines and didn't enter the Eurpean theater until Hitler declared war on the USA.

Yes I know all about lend-lease, US ships escorting covoys part way across the Atlantic prior to the USA formally entering the war, but that was the due to actions of a few esp. FDR.

But lets go back a bit further and the USA's treatment of the native American's, not the best chapter in the USA's history is it?

There is no doubt that the USA has done some good, but the picture is not as rosey as you are making it to be. The same can be said of many countries that they have done some good things and some not so good things.

And I think you'll find lots of nations help out when it comes to famine/disaster etc...
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Old September 28 2014, 06:54 PM   #62
Nightdiamond
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Re: If DS9 was produced today

Lance wrote: View Post
We know very little, but "Emissary" suggests that the Cardassians originally moved into Bajor under the pretext of friendship.

Source:

KIRA: I have been fighting for Bajoran independence since I was old enough to pick up a phaser. We finally drive the Cardassians out and what do our new leaders do? They call up the Federation and invite them right in!
SISKO: The Federation is only here to help...
KIRA: ... help us. Yes, I know. The Cardassians said the same thing sixty years ago.
So we might infer from that there was at least some kind of mutual bond in the beginning, maybe even a treaty and as you suggest Bajor gaining membership of the union under the pretext of the Cardassians providing some kind of benign aid, before eventually the Cardassians true nature was finally outed, they declared martial law, and the Bajorians realized they'd been used.

I still think a terrorist, whatever the ultimate purity of their motives, can only be judged on their actions. Killing civilians would be a line being crossed IMO, and I would suggest that there's definite evidence that Kira and her comrades were a party to exactly that kind of 'retribution'.

But what about the difference being the victims live far, far away in another area, or they forcibly live on and claim the terrorist's land?

The Cardassians were aliens who voluntarily came to live on Bajor after forcibly annexing it. They were taking the best for themselves and forcing the Bajorans into camps.

There seemed to be no other way for them. No help from the Federation, other than to wait for diplomatic solutions.

I think most fans have less sympathy for the Cardassians victims, simply because of the oppression they dealt out.

On the show, Kira didn't mind being called a terrorist, because it was the pre 9-11 days . But if it were made now? Freedom fighter would probably be the word.

If it were made 2009-2014, and on cable, and if they did use the word terrorist, they would probably go a lot deeper into the concept than they did on regular TV, I think.
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Old September 28 2014, 07:05 PM   #63
MacLeod
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Re: If DS9 was produced today

Terrorism existed long before 9-11.
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Old September 29 2014, 01:14 AM   #64
Bad Thoughts
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Re: If DS9 was produced today

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
On the show, Kira didn't mind being called a terrorist, because it was the pre 9-11 days . But if it were made now? Freedom fighter would probably be the word.
Kira barely tolerated the label, and there were moments that she was less enamored than others (as when Garak describes her in When it Rains). She also embraces other labels, so that fact that sometimes she might call herself a terrorist didn't mean that this was a simple expression of her identity. Indeed, the show did explore her past in many ways in terms of techniques and strategies.
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Old September 29 2014, 05:50 AM   #65
Lance
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Re: If DS9 was produced today

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
KIRA: I have been fighting for Bajoran independence since I was old enough to pick up a phaser. We finally drive the Cardassians out and what do our new leaders do? They call up the Federation and invite them right in!
SISKO: The Federation is only here to help...
KIRA: ... help us. Yes, I know. The Cardassians said the same thing sixty years ago.
The Cardassians were aliens who voluntarily came to live on Bajor after forcibly annexing it. They were taking the best for themselves and forcing the Bajorans into camps.
I'm not sure about them "forcibly annexing" Bajor before moving in. Read the quote. Kira explicitly draws parallels between the way the Cardassians originally established themselves on Bajor in the past, and the way the Federation have come is to offer assistance in the present. Did we ever learn exactly how the Cardies initially took over Bajor? I can't remember, but we can certainly infer from the above that it started out quite nicely for all concerned, perhaps with a lot of mutual benefits..... but then it only turned nasty later on. Which is why Kira is initially so sceptical about the idea of Federation "assistance".

Sound to me like the Cardies came in offering the olive branch, and only sunk their talons in later on.
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Old September 29 2014, 06:15 AM   #66
Tosk
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Re: If DS9 was produced today

Lance wrote: View Post
I'm not sure about them "forcibly annexing" Bajor before moving in.
I haven't watched the episodes in question to double check, but MemAlpha lists it thus:

"Cardassia became increasingly hostile as time went on, maintaining a military presence on the planet for ten years before forcibly annexing it in 2328." (TNG: "Ensign Ro"; DS9: "Emissary", "The Circle")
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Old September 29 2014, 11:40 AM   #67
Lance
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Re: If DS9 was produced today

^ Well there we go, that would seem to prove my point that they had been on the planet for some period before they annexed it (which would be the point where they officially became an occupying force rather than the apparent allies that Kira talks about in my quote above). Obviously a "military force" implies some degree of coercion, but on the other hand it might not have been that way right at the very start.....
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Old September 29 2014, 01:08 PM   #68
Bad Thoughts
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Re: If DS9 was produced today

^Gul Madred clearly described Cardassia as a militaristic and expansionist power. That can't be candy-coated by trying to extrapolate backward from annexation to military occupation to some sort of "benevolent" clientage of which we never hear.
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Old September 29 2014, 01:54 PM   #69
Lance
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Re: If DS9 was produced today

Bad Thoughts wrote: View Post
^Gul Madred clearly described Cardassia as a militaristic and expansionist power. That can't be candy-coated by trying to extrapolate backward from annexation to military occupation to some sort of "benevolent" clientage of which we never hear.
SISKO: The Federation is only here to help...
KIRA: ... help us. Yes, I know. The Cardassians said the same thing sixty years ago.
Of course, Kira could just be being sarcastic. Maybe.
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Old September 29 2014, 05:46 PM   #70
Bad Thoughts
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Re: If DS9 was produced today

^You proven my point: the meaning Kira was conveying was that the "help" the Cardassians were "offering" was something more nefarious and self-serving. She is equating the type of "help" that the Cardassians gave with the possible "help" that Starfleet will give, along with the possible loss of independence, self-determination, and personal freedom.
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Old September 29 2014, 07:36 PM   #71
Nightdiamond
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Re: If DS9 was produced today

Lance wrote: View Post
I'm not sure about them "forcibly annexing" Bajor before moving in. Read the quote. Kira explicitly draws parallels between the way the Cardassians originally established themselves on Bajor in the past, and the way the Federation have come is to offer assistance in the present. Did we ever learn exactly how the Cardies initially took over Bajor?
Bad Thoughts wrote: View Post
^You proven my point: the meaning Kira was conveying was that the "help" the Cardassians were "offering" was something more nefarious and self-serving. She is equating the type of "help" that the Cardassians gave with the possible "help" that Starfleet will give, along with the possible loss of independence, self-determination, and personal freedom.

The way you read it, it can go either way.

Dukat: They couldn't see that if they had only chosen to cooperate with us, we could've turned their world into a paradise.

From the moment we arrived on Bajor, it was clear that we were the superior race. But they couldn't accept that. They wanted to be treated as equals when they most definitely were not. Militarily, technologically, culturally -- we were almost a
century ahead of them in every way.
That sounds a lot like "sinister" help".

The Cardassians had a history of trying to seize territory, like that one in "Chain of Command.

This is what it looks like: They came across new territory, saw the resources, approached the natives (who they saw as inferior and naive.

And either through trickery or military might declared the territory a part of their own.

That describes a lot of our history of colonialism.
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Old October 1 2014, 11:04 PM   #72
jojolimited
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Location: NoVa
Re: If DS9 was produced today

This thread reinforces why I like DS9 so much. The balls to tackle very difficult subjects without resorting to simplistic TOS style answers. It's what separates it from all the other Trek series for the better. I like it that everyone on this thread has a strong POV that doesn't necessarily line up with others.
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