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Old November 22 2013, 01:19 AM   #31
2takesfrakes
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Re: Did T'Pol kill Trip?

Melakon wrote: View Post
I respectfully disagree. Killing Elizabeth was just as cheap as killing Robert and Rene in Generations. Cheaper perhaps, because at least viewers of TNG had already met those two. Elizabeth was a non-entity, whom we're supposed to care about only because she was Trip's sister. Lazy writing again.
You might expect me to argue your point, perhaps, but I won't. I happen to agree with you, because, certainly, there was some emotional manipulation going on. It follows, doesn't it, I mean ... even naming her Elizabeth, just to milk this whole "Trip loses another female family member" thing. I guess I am mostly talking about the direction, the way her last moments are handled. I don't know ... I just expected them to pull something else out of the hat, at this stage, just to keep an open thread, or something like that.
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Old November 22 2013, 01:32 AM   #32
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Re: Did T'Pol kill Trip?

I keep forgetting about Baby Elizabeth, which was just supposed to be an Awwww moment remembering the sister. Shoot, we never even saw sister Elizabeth until Trip started having nightmares about her. Then with killing Trip off, I guess we're supposed to feel sad because it's the end of the Tucker family tree. Geez, TATV must be the one single episode in all of Star Trek I genuinely despise.
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Old November 22 2013, 01:47 AM   #33
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Re: Did T'Pol kill Trip?

Oh, man...this whole Elizabeth thing...

I liked Trip at first, but after his sister was killed, I wasn't so sure anymore. I could understand and sympathize at first, but it got a little strange. Time heals all wounds, but I swear he just got worse and worse. It led me to think there was something seriously wrong with this guy. I don't know...maybe I just missed the point.
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Old November 22 2013, 01:56 AM   #34
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Re: Did T'Pol kill Trip?

Trip definitely had a problem accepting things, did he not? He was always in denial about his feelings, partly to himself, but mostly to T'Pol. She would hand him these Golden Opportunities to lay it on the line and he'd just pussy out. But yeah, when the Xindi killed off Elizabeth, he just would not let it go. Would not accept it. Would not move on. Worse, it was like the rest of the crew kind of acted as an "enabler" as far as those ill-effects went, just to be "supportive." It's one thing to make him "emotional" to throw T'Pol's (supposed) self-control into sharp relief, but it's quite another to stunt his emotional growth, besides.
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Old November 22 2013, 02:26 AM   #35
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Re: Did T'Pol kill Trip?

I don't think either Elizabeth death was cheap.

IF you're going to have a whole season about an attack on earth it makes sense that someone on the NX-01 would have suffered a personal loss in the attack. It makes even more sense to make that someone be a main character, from a writing perspective. Then you effectively have the voice of the disaster on the ship.

As to baby Elizabeth, yes I did care about her because of the sweetness of the response both Trip and T'Pol had to learning of her existence. The way T'Pol obviously cared about her and sought to bond with her. Not everyone is going to have that personal level of response to being presented with an infant that was manufactured out of their DNA outside of their knowledge. T'Pol is already a wreck because of the trellium (as Old T'Pol says, she will never recover) and she is awash in feelings in a very real way in these scenes, GOOD real feelings not just junkie trellium freak outs. It's a good story for T'Pol.
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Old November 22 2013, 05:25 AM   #36
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Re: Did T'Pol kill Trip?

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
This is where it all goes wrong, though. I totally agree with teacake, here. It's not even plausible. The Picard family doesn't live on a deserted island, in a straw hut. They're in France, where, by rights, there should be a 24th Century Fire Department.
I can't dispute the cheapness of killing off Robert Picard and family so as to give Patrick Stewart the chance to weep on the big screen, but to call it implausible? There are always going to be fires, and however well-developed a system is, there are always going to be ways that it just flops, sometimes. Obviously it wasn't merely a fire but something that kept detection and/or suppression and/or rescue operations from working.

One of the grand things in Arthur C Clarke novels is he usually has a plot beat where a reasonably well-engineered and well-implemented system nevertheless has that awful alignment of mishaps, accidents, bad timing, and missed communications that opens the crack just wide enough for a tragic event. We don't know what string of little things built up to catastrophe --- it would be unconscionable to spend the couple minutes of screen time explaining how it could happen, given that the total relevant information is ``there was a fire'' --- but I do believe that even in the 24th century people will die in fires.
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Old November 22 2013, 06:41 AM   #37
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Re: Did T'Pol kill Trip?

teacake wrote: View Post
WTF was wrong with Picard's family anyway, were they such luddites they didn't have smoke alarms?
Pft, have you seen Picard's dad in Tapestry? His brother in Family? It explains so much about him. I could easily see Robert going, "Fire alarms? I don't need your infernal technology in our family's house. A real man would endure the fire and not hide behind his pansy gadgets. Now get back to your Starship where you're seated next to a therapist daily."
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Old November 22 2013, 06:54 AM   #38
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Re: Did T'Pol kill Trip?

That's a very good point.

Maybe a still blew up and some hay caught fire?
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Old November 22 2013, 12:09 PM   #39
2takesfrakes
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Re: Did T'Pol kill Trip?

Nebusj wrote: View Post
I can't dispute the cheapness of killing off Robert Picard and family so as to give Patrick Stewart the chance to weep on the big screen, but to call it implausible? There are always going to be fires, and however well-developed a system is, there are always going to be ways that it just flops, sometimes. Obviously it wasn't merely a fire but something that kept detection and/or suppression and/or rescue operations from working.

One of the grand things in Arthur C Clarke novels is he usually has a plot beat where a reasonably well-engineered and well-implemented system nevertheless has that awful alignment of mishaps, accidents, bad timing, and missed communications that opens the crack just wide enough for a tragic event. We don't know what string of little things built up to catastrophe --- it would be unconscionable to spend the couple minutes of screen time explaining how it could happen, given that the total relevant information is ``there was a fire'' --- but I do believe that even in the 24th century people will die in fires.
Again, once Stewart suggested the Picard family not only die, but die in this manner, so that he could be seen weeping in a bucket, then ... the die was cast! "They" committed to it, included it and never looked back on it. But movies are very hypocritical, by nature, are they not? T.V. too, of course.

On one hand, everything shown, no matter how impossible, has to be "believable" in appearance. And yet, makes no other attempt at a documentary-type truth, unto itself, whatsoever.

In this case, in Roddenberry's STAR TREK, everything works. Once something comes out of the factory, if you don't screw around with it, by penetrating it with alien beams, of have some mad-man reprogram the thing with an axe, it will always work and work very well. I like Arthur C. Clark, but there's very little of his philosophy in Roddenberry's STAR TREK universe.
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