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Old May 10 2014, 11:12 PM   #16
2takesfrakes
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Re: The Holodeck?

Was the holodeck used too often instead of having "exploring" episodes? Absolutely, I wouldn't even contest that. I'll also throw in that most of the holodeck programs were surprisingly lame and cheap-looking. On TNG it seemed like a little too much luxury, to be really honest. ENTERPRISE-D was lavishly appointed, this kind of diversion wasn't really necessary. As Holosuites on a cramped DS9, they made a little more sense. Even on VOYAGER, it would've been acceptable, because of the pressures the crew was under, being unable to get home. Having said that, I always wished there'd been more DIXON HILL stories, there seemed to be some lost opportunity there ...
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Old May 11 2014, 12:32 AM   #17
Isolinear
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Re: The Holodeck?

Holotrek is some of the best trek. Overused? Maybe. But if I had a holodeck I'd run it all the time too.

I'll never forget the creepy holo-investigations from "Identity Crisis" and "Schisms". And "Our Man Bashir" is an incredible episode!
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Old May 11 2014, 02:39 AM   #18
HIjol
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Re: The Holodeck?

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Was the holodeck used too often instead of having "exploring" episodes? Absolutely, I wouldn't even contest that. I'll also throw in that most of the holodeck programs were surprisingly lame and cheap-looking. On TNG it seemed like a little too much luxury, to be really honest. ENTERPRISE-D was lavishly appointed, this kind of diversion wasn't really necessary. As Holosuites on a cramped DS9, they made a little more sense. Even on VOYAGER, it would've been acceptable, because of the pressures the crew was under, being unable to get home. Having said that, I always wished there'd been more DIXON HILL stories, there seemed to be some lost opportunity there ...
Completely agree on the "Dixon Hill" episode uptick, but, unless my eyes were cheated by some spell, I thought the "holo-sets" were pretty complete and looked like some money got spent on them... 'Course, I got old eyes, so it could be wishful memory...
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Old May 11 2014, 08:10 PM   #19
The Wormhole
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Re: The Holodeck?

Honestly, aside from the HMS Enterprise in Generations, the holodeck does often come off as cheap. That's probably unfair, most of the time they have to make do with limited TV budgets, while Generations had enough of a motion picture budget to get them their own boat.
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Old May 11 2014, 09:49 PM   #20
Isolinear
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Re: The Holodeck?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Honestly, aside from the HMS Enterprise in Generations, the holodeck does often come off as cheap. That's probably unfair, most of the time they have to make do with limited TV budgets, while Generations had enough of a motion picture budget to get them their own boat.
Cheap as in low production values? Compared to the average planet-set? Sorry, but I don't see it.
The period-piece holoprograms could use existing props instead of hastily constructed cardboard "alien architecture".
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Old May 11 2014, 11:55 PM   #21
2takesfrakes
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Re: The Holodeck?

Isolinear wrote: View Post
The period-piece holoprograms could use existing props instead of hastily constructed cardboard "alien architecture".
This has made my point, almost exactly! The fact that the Holodeck is the ultimate fantasy getaway and what do we see? Period Piece Rentals, pre-existing set pieces from prior TNG episodes, or movie sets, as well as earthly settings, most of the time. Even Captain Proton, or whatever it was Tom Paris played was exactly that "hastily constructed cardboard 'alien architecture'" of which you speak, only for jokey purposes. For all of the imagination and fantasy that this room afforded a gifted writer, Holodeck fantasies tended to be rather mundane and co$t-effective, despite what it was advertised as being capable of.
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Old May 12 2014, 01:05 AM   #22
Isolinear
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Re: The Holodeck?

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Holodeck fantasies tended to be rather mundane
Anomalies... battles... aliens.... No wonder these people need something mundane to relax after a hard day's work.

Anyway, in my opinion the holodeck adventures were not any less imaginative than the "normal" episodes.
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Old May 12 2014, 08:15 AM   #23
Captain Rob
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Re: The Holodeck?

The holodeck should have been used like the training programs from the Matrix.
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Old May 12 2014, 11:44 AM   #24
MacLeod
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Re: The Holodeck?

Like anything else there is nothing wrong with using the holodeck to tell a story, as with anything it's the application of the device that is key. Just as with anomoly of the week episodes some are better than others.
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Old May 12 2014, 04:36 PM   #25
Vandervecken
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Re: The Holodeck?

I enjoyed most of the Holodeck episodes. I'd have to say my favorite uses of the holodeck were for any DS9 episodes that had Vic Fontaine. I was surprised to read (can't remember exactly where) that he has something of a disliked-character status.

The one thing about the holodeck that did bug me after a few times it was used as a plot device was that not even one episode was ever devoted to an exploration of why and how the holodeck results in clear examples of AI at times. And not always after long/continual use, although that should have been explored as well; Moriarty was self-aware merely because of the parameters set, and as far as I could tell, Redblock had become self-aware. For that matter, it seemed like the cop (name escapes me) in the Dixon Hill setting also became self aware. Although I'm thinking in the cases of Redblock and the cop, the writers were still figuring the holodeck out. Still, it's canon.

Doesn't all this AI creation strongly suggest that the capacity for AI lies in all holodeck-generating computers? Even if the holo-AIs are emergent systems arising from computer-holodeck-human interactions and not stand-ins for the computers that run the holodeck, still, the implication for the computers themselves is there. I just always expected that some day they were going to explore this.
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Old May 12 2014, 06:10 PM   #26
Nerys Myk
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Re: The Holodeck?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
TayLaLaLa wrote: View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodeck

The first use of a "holodeck" by that name in the Star Trek universe was in the pilot episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, "Encounter at Farpoint", although a conceptually similar "recreation room" appeared in an episode of Star Trek: the Animated Series.[citation needed]
It's interesting to notice that The Making of Star Trek already mentioned holodeck applications, hence that "recreation room" in TAS' "Practical Joker".

Nevertheless, I think it's not too farfetched to assume that the people of Gideon ("Mark of Gideon") didn't actually build a physical replica of the TOS Enterprise but made Kirk walk a holodeck simulation his mind was somehow creating as he moved along.

Bob
Pretty sure they established the duplicate was a physical one. They had shots of crowds of people outside.
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Old May 13 2014, 12:05 PM   #27
HIjol
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Re: The Holodeck?

Captain Rob wrote: View Post
The holodeck should have been used like the training programs from the Matrix.
Absolutemundo, Rob, as it frequently was (TNG: "Code of Honor", "Where Silence Has Lease", "The Emissary", "New Ground", "Firstborn"; VOY: "Extreme Risk", "The Fight")

...but, certainly, also for recreation...
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Old May 13 2014, 02:03 PM   #28
Timo
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Re: The Holodeck?

Doesn't all this AI creation strongly suggest that the capacity for AI lies in all holodeck-generating computers?
Supposedly, it would have been a capacity for large computers in the Trek universe for several centuries already - and something included in the design parameters of a starship. Either the computer is built with special limiters in place that hobble its ability to go excessively self-aware, or then it is given its own internal playgrounds where it can be just as self-aware as it pleases, as long as it agrees to playing the dumb old butler to the crew.

Self-awareness would come in degrees, mind you. The computer could be as self-aware as a goldfish, a cat, a human, a god, something beyond - or all these at the same time, in different segments of its complex mind. It probably shouldn't concern the users except in the "uncanny valley" where the ability of the computer to be the perfect butler borders on intrusion of privacy. A computer as self-aware as a cat is cute; a computer as self-aware as a god is efficient. A computer that pretends to be a human is competition, and can be suspected of being as evil and perverted as humans tend to be (whereas our experience with evil and perversion in cats and gods is somewhat anecdotal so far).

Pretty sure they established the duplicate was a physical one.
Doesn't rule out that it would have been enhanced somehow. Say, Kirk could have been high on drugs that cloud his judgement so much he doesn't even notice it is being clouded; the same potent drugs would be in the air awaiting for Spock or other intruders, making them buy into the illusion of a "perfect" replica (as this would be what these characters would want to believe - Kirk because he wants his familiar ship, Spock because he has cleverly deduced that a perfect replica is how Kirk is being fooled).

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