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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old March 15 2014, 08:51 PM   #46
Timo
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Re: Freighters and Cargoships

considering 150 planets, average of 3 billion people per planet??
Actually, in "Metamorphosis", either the Federation or mankind is "on a thousand planets and spreading". This probably includes a handful of inhabited worlds and a much larger number of nearby uninhabitable worlds being exploited by the UFP/mankind, with minimal or no live presence. 150 UFP members might mean 150 homeworlds, each with billions of denizens, but a colony typically features just thousands or even mere hundreds of people, and even the well-established hubworld Deneva only had a million or so people; we never ever heard of a non-homeworld with billions of people.

I'd say the argument for a freight network is all the more solid for this. But this does make one wonder why freighters would remain categorically ENT-slow in the TOS era. Sure, "Friday's Child" might be ignored as an outlier, but it would be much more satisfactory to invent a fancy reason for the slowness, since nothing in TOS really contradicts it, either.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old March 16 2014, 12:11 AM   #47
EmperorTiberius
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Re: Freighters and Cargoships

Timo wrote: View Post
considering 150 planets, average of 3 billion people per planet??
Actually, in "Metamorphosis", either the Federation or mankind is "on a thousand planets and spreading". This probably includes a handful of inhabited worlds and a much larger number of nearby uninhabitable worlds being exploited by the UFP/mankind, with minimal or no live presence. 150 UFP members might mean 150 homeworlds, each with billions of denizens, but a colony typically features just thousands or even mere hundreds of people, and even the well-established hubworld Deneva only had a million or so people; we never ever heard of a non-homeworld with billions of people.

I'd say the argument for a freight network is all the more solid for this. But this does make one wonder why freighters would remain categorically ENT-slow in the TOS era. Sure, "Friday's Child" might be ignored as an outlier, but it would be much more satisfactory to invent a fancy reason for the slowness, since nothing in TOS really contradicts it, either.

Timo Saloniemi
I got the impression that New Sidney from DS9 (not a memeber of Federation) and Turkana IV (Tasha's colony) might number in millions and even billions. I don't remember if exact numbers were ever mentioned, but the sheer size of infrastructure would have them in millions at least.
But the rest of the colonies are indeed really small, Jouret IV, Omicron Theta, Rana, etc

The slowness of freighters might have to do with civilian ownership. Individual using them might not have enough resources to acquire powerful components, which would include, not only a warp drive, but materials of which to build ship struts, SIF, warp coils, etc. You would also need highly qualified personnel to run this, and engineers don't come free. Instead, he joins a network of steady stream of slow freighters, either organized by Starfleet or Merchant Marine-like organization, and they get the same effect as having a few transports with high speed running back and forth.
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Old March 16 2014, 10:54 AM   #48
Timo
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Re: Freighters and Cargoships

I got the impression that New Sidney from DS9 (not a memeber of Federation) and Turkana IV (Tasha's colony) might number in millions and even billions.
The former was a big mine; might be there's no colony there at all. We only saw very few people, and those seemed to form a close-knit community... There might be a big city or a planetwide civilization outside the mine, though, interacting only minimally with the mine people.

The latter was a single underground city of known dimensions. Perhaps large enough to hold millions, but essentially empty and even partially deserted inside.

The model by which freighters in TOS remain slow is plausible as such, for the type of operations that is not time-critical in any way: ore or grain hauling and the like. Yet this conflicts, sort of, with the idea of very small freighter vessels that must be hauling high value-per-mass items... Those probably couldn't afford to be slow. I guess it's just a statistical artifact that we see one type and hear of another - and for some reason, the small ships aren't counted as "freighters" but perhaps "trading vessels" or something.

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Old March 27 2014, 06:45 AM   #49
ngc7293
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Re: Freighters and Cargoships

What about the Shelley Class? DITL shows it as a Cargo Vessel.
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Old March 27 2014, 09:11 AM   #50
Timo
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Re: Freighters and Cargoships

Much depends on how we interpret the scale of that kitbash. Is she as big as her saucer indicates? Or as small as her warp engines do?

If the former, then there's plenty of internal volume for cargo, and the things that look like shuttlebays can be shuttlebays for loading and offloading. If the latter, then many parts of the ship are too slim for load-carrying, and the "hangar doors" become too low to really serve as cargo barge entrances. But the entire ventral hull can then be interpreted as one big cargo grapple, ideal for towing one or more of those Franz Joseph style cargo pods!

Of course, having the Excelsior saucer means having the twenty phaser emitters, too; perhaps a bit excessive for a transport vessel?

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Old March 28 2014, 04:50 AM   #51
ngc7293
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Re: Freighters and Cargoships

The majority of non hero ships are kit bashes. The thought in mind is in universe. If you look at it from that point of view then all kit bashes are just ships of one kind or another.

What I am referring to is that thing the Shelley carries underneath.
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Last edited by ngc7293; March 28 2014 at 04:54 AM. Reason: specifics
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Old March 28 2014, 10:24 PM   #52
Timo
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Re: Freighters and Cargoships

De facto, the only thing she carries underneath is the standard secondary hull for a ship of Excelsior type, only moved forward a bit and given a second shuttlebay where the connecting neck used to stand. By that token, her role could be identical to that of the Excelsior, plus a few extra shuttles...

If we scale the ship down by her engines (as the hulls as such feature no scale-establishing detail, just portholes that don't even demarcate obvious decks, that is, they don't give a clear-cut "deck density" count) then her role as a slightly deformed Excelsior is cast in doubt. A smaller ship is more likely to hold a lesser role, perhaps that of a transport. If so, the "thing dangling beneath" might well be a cargo grapple designed to hold on to a FJ pod. Or then a spare part of some wholly different ship, being towed by this dedicated fleet tug. Or then a detachable fighting section, or a field hospital, or a mere ornament for all we know.

Personally, I like the idea of both these kitbashes (the one with the vertical engines as well as the other with the horizontal ones) indeed being fleet cargo tugs. The registry range is fitting for the Mediterranean class of semicanon transports, FWIW...

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Old March 29 2014, 04:42 AM   #53
ngc7293
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Re: Freighters and Cargoships

Timo wrote: View Post
(snip)
A smaller ship is more likely to hold a lesser role, perhaps that of a transport. If so, the "thing dangling beneath" might well be a cargo grapple designed to hold on to a FJ pod. Or then a spare part of some wholly different ship, being towed by this dedicated fleet tug. Or then a detachable fighting section, or a field hospital, or a mere ornament for all we know.

Personally, I like the idea of both these kitbashes (the one with the vertical engines as well as the other with the horizontal ones) indeed being fleet cargo tugs. The registry range is fitting for the Mediterranean class of semicanon transports, FWIW...

Timo Saloniemi
Well you pretty much confirmed what I said (ie Shelley Class as a cargo ship). But with more words.

I think it is known as one of the ugliest kitbashes, but DITL suggests it as a cargo ship, though realistically there really isn't that much room. I am sure that looked better than something else they might have created.
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Old April 24 2014, 02:27 AM   #54
varek
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Re: Freighters and Cargoships

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Lt.Juliet wrote: View Post
How are those starbases built? Wouldn't that need a lot of resources and therefore ships to carry them in the first place?
Could be built by a mix of different vessels carrying construction materials, equipment and various supplies, both Starfleet and civilian. Even the Enterprise-D was used to make a cargo run to Deep Space Nine to deliver the station's initial batch of runabouts.
Using materials from various vessels to construct freighters or transports--say, from various scrapyards--is a great idea! I'm sure the Ferengi and other trading races would like to utilize such profitable "kitbash" materials.

And, please forgive me if I overlooked anyone else's post, but many races seem to make their living by transporting goods (mostly) and people for the Federation. So, perhaps Starfleet finds it easier and cheaper to hire these experienced captains and crews than to train them for Starfleet service.

As mentioned above, Starfleet vessels do transport people and cargo, although usually in smaller numbers and quantities, respectively.
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