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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old November 13 2013, 06:07 AM   #331
borgboy
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Re: LGBT Characters in Trek (Help and no flames Please)

Yes, I agree. My friend was pretty narrow minded about a lot of things, and had a pretty conventional and old fashioned attitude towards gender expression and sexuality. I didn't agree with him at all.
It's been a couple of years since I've seen that ep, but I think I recall Kirk responding to Lester's discussion, and his responses backing up her claims about there being a gender restriction to captaincy.
I'm not at all sure if that would work in real life, but is it possible that a woman could hold the rank of captain without actually having a ship of her own, or is that not an option?
I'd be happy to dismiss Lester's assertion that women can't be captains as being her view on her being passed over, but that other women were captains. I'm just not sure I think the episode really leaves that much wiggle room or not. I'll have to give that some thought when I get around to watching it again. If Kirk doesn't actually agree with her then it works. I've never been comfortable with their being that much sexism in the 23rd century.
I'll also keep an eye out for female captains in the movies. I thought they were in there sooner than TVH, but I could be wrong. Great point about Saavik in the training simulation.
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Old November 13 2013, 01:10 PM   #332
lvsxy808
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Re: LGBT Characters in Trek (Help and no flames Please)

Christopher wrote: View Post
On a similar subject, the body/gender switch ep in TOS, which was based around female officers not being allowed to captain a ship, that continues to be very jarring. Have any of the books ever touched on that subject, or contradicted it? I'm pretty sure we see female captains in TOS follow up movies, maybe as early as TMP. I'd be interested to see a book do something with that, explain why that aspect of sexism survived to the 23rd century.
Fortunately the line in "Turnabout Intruder" about how "your world of starship captains doesn't admit women" is ambiguous enough that it allows for multiple readings. The preferred reading is that Janice Lester was a paranoid schizophrenic who held the delusional belief that she was rejected as a command candidate because of her sex rather than because she was unstable and incompetent.
My chosen interpretation was neither of those, but rather that she was talking specifically about Kirk's world of starship captains - to wit, that being a starship captain precluded for him the possibility of letting a woman into his life. I don't know how that fits in with the rest of the episode, though. I'm not that familiar with TOS.

Either way, as Christopher says, there's no reason to give that one line any credence whatsoever, not when it's massively outweighed by endless numbers of other references that contradict it, and it was spoken by a madwoman.


borgboy wrote: View Post
Is it possible that a woman could hold the rank of captain without actually having a ship of her own, or is that not an option?
Absolutely it is. Phillipa Louvois from "The Measure of a Man" was a captain within the JAG department. "Captain" the rank and "captain" the position are not necessarily synonymous, even though they often intersect. Seen in the opposite direction when Dax was the captain of the Defiant in "Favour the Bold" even though she was only of LtCmdr rank.

As another attempt to bring it back to topic, I don't recall there ever being an LGBT Starfleet captain to my knowledge, but then I haven't read every book ever. Of course in many cases there's no reason to go into a captain's personal life when they're not a focus character, so we may have seen plenty and just not known it.

.
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Old November 13 2013, 02:15 PM   #333
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Re: LGBT Characters in Trek (Help and no flames Please)

That's true, I can't recall an LGBT captain either. I'd like to see that, but I'm still pretty happy with the LGBT engineers, science and medical officers, etc we have seen. Always room for more though.
Another side topic, I'm just getting into collecting the IDW Trek trades. Has their been any LGBT characters in those? I know there's a New Frontier book, so there's Burgy and Selar at least.
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Old November 13 2013, 03:45 PM   #334
Christopher
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Re: LGBT Characters in Trek (Help and no flames Please)

borgboy wrote: View Post
It's been a couple of years since I've seen that ep, but I think I recall Kirk responding to Lester's discussion, and his responses backing up her claims about there being a gender restriction to captaincy.
Yes, that was the intent of the script, but we're allowed to ignore it. Star Trek is fiction, not a documentary, so we don't have to treat every last detail as inviolable gospel. Sometimes something that's asserted in one episode is ignored or retconned later on because it was clearly a mistake or a bad idea. For instance, "The Alternative Factor" portrayed antimatter and dilithium in a way that contradicted what had already been established in the show, and so the rest of canon has consistently ignored it. And TNG, DS9, and VGR all ignored what "The Magicks of Megas-tu" and The Final Frontier asserted about the ease of travel to the center of the galaxy, instead consistently asserting that journeys of such length would take decades at normal warp speeds.

So ST has often ignored its past mistakes, and "Turnabout Intruder"'s sexist implications have been consistently ignored and contradicted by the rest of canon for decades, and rightly so. I see no reason to reverse that policy now.



lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
As another attempt to bring it back to topic, I don't recall there ever being an LGBT Starfleet captain to my knowledge, but then I haven't read every book ever. Of course in many cases there's no reason to go into a captain's personal life when they're not a focus character, so we may have seen plenty and just not known it.
As mentioned way back on the first page or two of this thread, that very same female Saratoga captain from TVH was established in the Crucible trilogy as having a wife (and was given the name Margaret Sinclair-Alexander, based on the name of her portrayer, Madge Sinclair).
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Old November 13 2013, 08:50 PM   #335
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Re: LGBT Characters in Trek (Help and no flames Please)

Ah yes of course, sorry, I remember that now. Didn't she also go on to be CinC of all of Starfleet too, or something? Which is pretty much as high up as you can go.
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Old November 14 2013, 07:22 PM   #336
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Re: LGBT Characters in Trek (Help and no flames Please)

In The Sorrows of Empire, Commander Takashewada states that the Sato dynasty ruled that no females can be captain. Takashewada becomes the first woman captain in more than a century thanks to a promotion by Spock.
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