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Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 4 2014, 11:08 AM   #46
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Location: Montgomery County, State of Maryland
Re: The Red Federation ship in Into Darkness

TwoJakes wrote: View Post
In America, while people are politically Amerians, there is a on-going distinction of people by the language, religion and culture of their origins.
But given that Central North America was also subject to colonization and racial-economic apartheid throughout much of its existence -- really, even to this day, given the slave-like status of undocumented workers throughout much of the country -- I don't think the United States can necessarily be compared to a union built through mutual consent and egalitarianism.

(Mutual consent of the major European cultures that dominated the Thirteen Colonies, perhaps -- the Yankee New Englanders, the Deep Southerners, the New Yorkers, the Tidewaters. Certainly not the mutual consent of the displaced or exterminated Native American nations, of the enslaved African Americans, or of the conquered Mexicans.)

Dispite obtaining a membership in the Federation, there wouldn't automatically be a pressing need to assimulate with the cultures of those who came before you. As stated above the Federation needn't be a melting pot.

The Federation might not have a "Federation culture" in any real sense. Nor would there be any expectation of such a culture developing in the Federation's future.
Thing is, we know from DSN's "Let He Who Is Without Sin..." episode that there is a sense that there exists something called "traditional Federation values," a common set of principles viewed as a source of cultural identity for Federation citizens. (We also know from that episode that just what those principles entail is the subject of disagreement amongst Federates -- as common cultural identifiers frequently are in real life.)

I for one see no reason the Federation might not have both a common Federation cultural identity, and a local planet identity.

Tuvok was a Vulcan, not just biologically, but socially and culturally.
Sure. But Tuvok was also a Federate -- not just politically, but culturally. He did not believe in the kinds of conservative, neo-imperialist Vulcan values we saw characters like V'Las espouse during the pre-Federation era on ENT. Many of Tuvok's cultural values -- democracy, freedom of expression, pluralism -- are obviously the product of Vulcan's prolonged interaction with Earth and other worlds.

Tuvok is a Vulcan and a Federate, and there's no reason he can't culturally identify with both.
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Old May 4 2014, 09:58 PM   #47
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Re: The Red Federation ship in Into Darkness

Are we sure the ship wasn't red just so that Stitch would know which one to steal from Officer Gantu?
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Old May 4 2014, 10:30 PM   #48
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Re: The Red Federation ship in Into Darkness

T'Girl wrote: View Post
RAMA wrote: View Post
And we have a winner.

Ironically, metal can oxidize in space--LEO especially
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Old May 6 2014, 12:24 AM   #49
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Re: The Red Federation ship in Into Darkness

Ar-Pharazon wrote: View Post
saddestmoon wrote: View Post
Leathco wrote: View Post
I haven't seen ANY discussion on this, but after many years of seeing Starfleet using mostly grey/silver ships, Into Darkness brought us a black one (heck, they may have used black earlier in Trek that I am not remembering) and a red one?

In the scene where the shuttlecraft ferrying Kirk and Spock back to Enterprise, you can see a three nacelled red ship in the lower left part of the screen.

So, why is it red when all other ships have shared the same color scheme? Is it an older ship from a different civilization? A special ops ship? Maybe a ship that has been operating in an environment to alter its hull color?

[Great Big Image placed behind thumbnail to alleviate horizontal stretching of page. Click on thumbnail to view larger image. - M']
Not to be that guy, buuuut... there was a thread started by myself on this topic:

Just thought it could be useful to link to it, in case it helped with this discussion.

Personally, I still find the mystery red ship fascinating...
That means this is the 3rd thread on this subject. I posted a link in another thread, memory-alpha's entry on the Armstrong, which mentions a "brown hull variant" to the class.

ETA: here it is -

Now I too am "that guy"
Ha! Nice! ...and the legend of the red/brown starship ever grows...
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Old May 6 2014, 04:37 AM   #50
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Re: The Red Federation ship in Into Darkness

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ A hundred years is a long time.
Not to Vulcans it isn't. By the mid 23rd century, the Vulcans who witnessed the birth of the Federation are just barely in retirement age; for a species that has been exploring space for two millenia and has had warp capability for five centuries, Federation membership is just a recent (if significant) blip on their historical radar.

To be sure, it would have a lasting effect on their culture, their practices, their traditions and political priorities. But it would NOT have the effect of causing Vulcan culture to socially assimilate with that of other Federation members. They are less likely to see themselves as a "unified nation" than they are as an individual race that is part of a fraternity of like-minded races. Sort of like the EU.

Having separate fleets may have worked - may even have been necessary - back in 2161, but they don't need it after all these years.
Of course they do. The question is WHAT would the separate fleets be used for? More than likely, they'd be used in home defense of those member worlds, their own solar systems and their major commitments. Starfleet got to be as important as it was mainly because Earth was the only founding member of the Federation that wasn't actively in conflict with the other three; the Federation members felt they could trust them to act fairly on everyone else's behalf, arbitrating disputes between members and colonies and also enforcing Federation law without being biased towards any one side.

IOW, Starfleet's role is to police the Federation frontier. Its member states would still be in charge of their own back yards.

Besides, for in-universe purposes, I'm not seeing the reason for having ships be a certain color anyway. Starship crews detect other vessels by looking at sensor readings, not peering out a window. If a starship is red, the only ones who are going to even see that red are US, the viewers of the film. So I can't think of any reason to have that ship be red other than it simply looks cool.
Visually at least, each member race tends to make all of its ships roughly the same color. Andorian ships of the 22nd century had a dull grey color while Vulcan ships tended to be red, Tellarite ships were brown, Romulan ships were green and/or had green lights on them.

To the extent that any particular starship should have any color at all, the colors have been mostly consistent throughout the years to the point that a red starship COULD reasonably be assumed to have been built and/or owned by Vulcans.
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Old May 6 2014, 09:41 PM   #51
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Location: New Zealand
Re: The Red Federation ship in Into Darkness

It doesn't seem unreasonable to believe that maybe there was experimentation of alternate hull materials - perhaps the vessel's captain was a Vulcan, and wanted to use 'Vulcan Alloys' for additional strengthening properties - entirely logical from a Vulcan viewpoint - and perhaps the Federation approved of this, and it was being test-bedded in the Armstrong-Class Excelsior...

Seems perfectly reasonable to me...

Whatever the explanation, I like the alternate colouring - it's nice to have rules, and then exceptions to them, even within Starfleet (IMO).
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Old May 9 2014, 07:19 PM   #52
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Location: California
Re: The Red Federation ship in Into Darkness

Perhaps its a reflection caused by copious use of lense flares.
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Old May 14 2014, 11:12 PM   #53
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Re: The Red Federation ship in Into Darkness

Perhaps its just been primed with a red undercoat and the gray topcoat, ala "Operation: Petticoat", hasn't been applied yet ....
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