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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old August 4 2014, 12:14 PM   #16
Timo
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Re: Four Years War

A further reference to war being a thing of the past comes from "Let That Be" where "the need to resort to violence and force has long since passed", although that may be more a reference to the abolition of truncheons and handcuffs now that the civilized option of apprehending troublemakers by shooting them unconscious with a phaser has been introduced.

Kirk's propaganda talk about war being in the past would work just fine if the Romulan War were the last big nastiness for Earth or the Federation. It will start sounding a bit more hollow if there has been war within Kirk's lifetime, and becomes pretentious if there was war within his service time - but people did speak of the end of all wars immediately after WWI, and certainly just before it, despite there having been a big European confrontation as recently as in 1870.

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Old August 4 2014, 11:54 PM   #17
T'Girl
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Re: Four Years War

The TOS era did seem more peaceful than the TNG era.



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Old August 5 2014, 09:06 AM   #18
Timo
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Re: Four Years War

Well, discounting movies, the TOS era was three years; the TNG era was seven or, if related spinoffs count, fifteen. More time for distant or short-lived wars like the "Errand of Mercy" one to pop up and then down again!

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Old August 5 2014, 09:32 AM   #19
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Re: Four Years War

Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
I don't think there's anything in TOS itself that explicitly rules out a full-scale war of the type discussed here. The only thing I recall that might discount it is Carol's line in TWOK where she said that Starfleet has "kept the peace" for a hundred years.

OTOH, we know from "Errand of Mercy" that the Federation was in an official state of war with the Klingons in the 2260s, however briefly it may have lasted. Carol's statement seems to discount this war, too, so perhaps her claim is unjustified.
Based on its context, I've always interpreted that line as regarding the peace between the military and civilian scientists.

DAVID: I've tried to tell you before. Scientists have always been pawns of the military.
CAROL: Starfleet has kept the peace for a hundred [sic; missing word]. I cannot and will not subscribe to your interpretation of this event.
link

In other words, Starfleet hasn't raided scientists' laboratories for a hundred years.
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Old August 6 2014, 05:55 PM   #20
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Re: Four Years War

I just want to say, the phrase "unremitting hostility" can mean more than one thing.

It seems like most people are interpreting it as shooting each other and blowing things up, like a war undeclared.

It can also mean just uncooperative hostility without actual violence on either side. For example, a Federation ship that's in trouble in that area of space and calls for help won't get any assistance from a passing Klingon. Not that the Klingon caused the distress or even used it as a reason to attack, just ignoring the distress call and having a good laugh about it is hostile in nature. Having neutral zones and minefields and other nasty things is also hostile without actual shooting wars. And assuming the Federation's new terraforming device is really a planet destroying torpedo and infiltrating Federation Space to steal it is hostile, yet not a war.


CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Based on its context, I've always interpreted that line as regarding the peace between the military and civilian scientists.

DAVID: I've tried to tell you before. Scientists have always been pawns of the military.
CAROL: Starfleet has kept the peace for a hundred [sic; missing word]. I cannot and will not subscribe to your interpretation of this event.
link

In other words, Starfleet hasn't raided scientists' laboratories for a hundred years.
I agree.
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Old August 7 2014, 05:26 AM   #21
Nerys Myk
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Re: Four Years War

Never thought of it that way before.
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Old August 7 2014, 06:35 AM   #22
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Four Years War

Marsden wrote: View Post
And assuming the Federation's new terraforming device is really a planet destroying torpedo and infiltrating Federation Space to steal it is hostile, yet not a war.
I'm pretty sure it would be considered an act of war though. Especially with the whole blowing up a science vessel while doing it.
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Old August 7 2014, 06:58 AM   #23
Ithekro
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Re: Four Years War

Seems the Federation council didn't see it that way. Otherwise they probably wouldn't have bothered with the Klingon ambassador trying to extradite Kirk into Klingon hands. Or that was their attempt to keep the "peace". The "peace" that will not be "as long as Kirk lives".


The assumption of the hostility is both hot and cold wars with a period of mutual dislike and distrust going back to Archer's time. The actual hostility starting only when the Klingons and Federation borders start to cause each other direct problems, rather than the two attempting to ignore each other over the neutral space between them prior to whatever planets were annexed by the two sides sometime around 2220 or before. So from 2151 to 2211, there may have been incidents, but the two sides probably just didn't interact that much after Enterprise and the Romulan War. But after that, something happened to make the hostility a real problem. A problem enough to make Spock comment on it as a thing they'd been dealing with up to the 2290s and the destruction on Praxis.

Even then, it seems like the Federation (or at least the humans) were not all that much of a threat to the Klingon until the proposed Four Years War and some technological improvements to shields and weaponry make Starfleet powerful enough to engage the D7 battlecruisers with a good chance of beating it (the Enterprise seems to be able to handle one easily enough while undamaged).

Though perhaps the older ships that are similar in design to Enterprise were garbage scows. The power to weight ratio might be favorable for combat ships and explorer that don't have to tow that much stuff.
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Old August 8 2014, 11:13 AM   #24
Timo
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Re: Four Years War

We might also argue the reverse: the Klingon Empire might have been hitting an all-time low at the time of ENT, having had their foreheads baldy bumped by the Vulcans with their superior ships and tactics, and wading deep in self-pity and Kahlessian fanaticism without the means to lash out at their opponents. Only in the early 23rd century would they get their act together again, fielding quality weapons in practical numbers - against a "unified" opponent consisting of many low-tech civilizations that mainly just hobble the few truly combatworthy member civilizations.

I could see Klingons as fairly bipolar, not personally but culturally: whenever the Empire is doing well, it starts infighting for the spoils, and then follows a period of underachievement that is only ended when something again unifies the feuding Houses - say, a powerful Chancellor, an inspirational religious movement, a novel weapons technology or a new opponent.

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Old August 8 2014, 07:27 PM   #25
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Re: Four Years War

Avro Arrow wrote: View Post

Yeah, at one point in the episode, Kirk says to Garth: "I agree there was a time when war was necessary, and you were our greatest warrior. I studied your victory at Axanar when I was a cadet. In fact it's still required reading at the Academy."

So Garth was a warrior at one point, and had an important victory at Axanar. You could use this to infer a possible war, but it's not explicit.
Not just Garth, but Kirk too was implied to have served in a war before becoming primarily an explorer:

GARTH:You, Captain, are second only to me as the finest military commander in the galaxy.
KIRK: That's very flattering. I am primarily an explorer now, Captain Garth.
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Old August 9 2014, 08:59 PM   #26
Timo
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Re: Four Years War

...One of course is tempted to ask what sort of an environment would allow young Jim Kirk to rank among the finest - a Federation tangled up in major wars, with fighting going on everywhere, or a Federation living in peace, with combat experience the privilege of the few who stir up trouble at the frontier.

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Old August 9 2014, 11:34 PM   #27
Ithekro
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Re: Four Years War

Perhaps his victory over the Romulans and brush with the Klingons over Organia warrant that title?

Or some action he did before becoming captain of the Enterprise that warrented Pike hand picking him.
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Old August 10 2014, 12:03 AM   #28
Nerys Myk
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Re: Four Years War

Ithekro wrote: View Post
Perhaps his victory over the Romulans and brush with the Klingons over Organia warrant that title?

Or some action he did before becoming captain of the Enterprise that warrented Pike hand picking him.
Organia wasn't exactly a triumph of strategy and tactics.
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Old August 10 2014, 07:47 PM   #29
Timo
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Re: Four Years War

It's curious that the one piece of supposed brilliant tactics by Kirk that does get a mention in the episode is his victory over Romulans. Since Romulans have been out of the picture for a century and would only have been participating in fights in the last year or two, this sort of establishes that Kirk was a warrior until very recently.

Unless we argue that the "explorers" of "nowadays" regularly defeat Romulans, Klingons or Tholians in isolated incidents like that, and real soldiers used to fight 24/7 for decades at an end...

Or then the UFP has been at total peace for so long that people get to be famous military heroes by doing well in a simulated fight, in this case in a brilliant re-enactment of an old battle against Romulans.

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Old August 23 2014, 12:32 AM   #30
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Re: Four Years War

Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
I don't think there's anything in TOS itself that explicitly rules out a full-scale war of the type discussed here. The only thing I recall that might discount it is Carol's line in TWOK where she said that Starfleet has "kept the peace" for a hundred years.

OTOH, we know from "Errand of Mercy" that the Federation was in an official state of war with the Klingons in the 2260s, however briefly it may have lasted. Carol's statement seems to discount this war, too, so perhaps her claim is unjustified.
Doctor Marcus's comment could also be interpreted literally; the UFP Star Fleet may in fact be only 100 years old by the time of TWOK. The time gap between 2161 and 2185 might allow for the continued expansion of UESPA as well as the "national" fleets of the UFP to continue operations in joint fashion but nonetheless as separate entities until 2183 or so when the Star Fleet became a "combined service" as mentioned in "Tomorrow is Yesterday".
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