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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old August 7 2014, 03:24 PM   #106
T'Girl
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Re: StarFleet Officers that are A..h...s

Marsden wrote: View Post
Aren't they just a few years away from sanctuaries for homeless people?
About half a century, more or less.


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Old August 7 2014, 04:17 PM   #107
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Re: StarFleet Officers that are A..h...s

I'm not sure if the four shift rotation was an unecessary order... but the department heads have assured me that it is going to cause significant personel problems

I kind of liked that Picard was negative about today's time, because I enjoy the whole enlightened future era with no problems/money thing. The only time I enjoy modern times being in Star Trek is on the holodeck or when they are talking about how crappy earth's past was. I think he was mostly just annoyed that the one guy was using the com panel though.
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Old August 8 2014, 02:52 AM   #108
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Re: StarFleet Officers that are A..h...s

Why do TNG humans take such a beating for providing the sort of alien perspective of modern humanity that Spock did in TOS?
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Old August 8 2014, 03:13 AM   #109
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Re: StarFleet Officers that are A..h...s

^ Because even Spock treated humanity with respect.

Disco wrote: View Post
Being the Captain and therefore must be right and must be followed is not justifcation.
Actually, that is exactly what it is.

Effective leadership involves inspiring the crew and working with them to draw out their strengths and not being a dictator.
As has already been pointed out, Jellico DID NOT HAVE TIME for that. They were in an immediate crisis situation. Jellico did what he had to do, in order to get the crew in efficient working order, so as to bring that crisis to an end.

If Jellico had been appointed permanent captain of the Enterprise, then things might have been different. But they weren't.
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Old August 8 2014, 11:14 AM   #110
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Re: StarFleet Officers that are A..h...s

As has already been pointed out, Jellico DID NOT HAVE TIME for that. They were in an immediate crisis situation. Jellico did what he had to do, in order to get the crew in efficient working order, so as to bring that crisis to an end.
Sure. If you are in a "immediate crisis" coming from the outside, the first thing to do is shake everything internally up, so no one in the team acts within their routines anymore and just concentrates on the task ahead, but everyone in fact has to invest their full energy in adapting to the new orders and developing new routines plus dealing with the "immediate crisis", because WE NEED MOAR STRESS PEOPLES, LIFE ISNT FUN OTHERWISE!

The only reason while Jellice needed to change the routines on the 1701-D was the fact, that he wasnt capable to adapt to a new environment. If someone was in an "immediate crisis", it was Jellico, because he was scared of the new environment on the 1701-D and lacked the ability to adapt to this new situation. He even made the crisis situation more complicated by distracting the team from the task ahead by adding more "artificial" tasks onto their shoulders, just because he couldnt handle the new environment. If he cannot do that in such an "immediate crisis", he was the wrong man for this job.

Picard gave Jellico a well oiled machine to solve the task ahead. And instead of solving the task ahead and concentrate on that, Jellico made everyone concentrate on reconfiguring this machine, which was a unneccesary distraction from the task ahead.

Riker was right: Jellico was a bad captain. That guy didnt have his priorities right. His task was to deal with the Cardassians, not to reconfigure the ships routine, redecorate the captains office and put peoples in uniform (while the guy he should protect is tortured - but hey, "GET THE FUCKING FISH TANK OUT OF MY OFFICE!"). Jellico was a cry baby, whining when the crew wasnt pampering him, and a failure as captain because he wasted the energy of the crew.

In real life he would be one of those CEOs who fail at the important tasks and when they have to go, they give themselves credit for making a fine job, because his office was decorated nicely, the people were all proper dressed, and everyone bowed to the CEO, because thats what a successfull enterprise is all about!

Last edited by Salinga; August 8 2014 at 12:07 PM.
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Old August 8 2014, 01:20 PM   #111
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Re: StarFleet Officers that are A..h...s

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Because even Spock treated humanity with respect.

Disco wrote: View Post
Being the Captain and therefore must be right and must be followed is not justifcation.
Actually, that is exactly what it is.

Effective leadership involves inspiring the crew and working with them to draw out their strengths and not being a dictator.
As has already been pointed out, Jellico DID NOT HAVE TIME for that. They were in an immediate crisis situation. Jellico did what he had to do, in order to get the crew in efficient working order, so as to bring that crisis to an end.

If Jellico had been appointed permanent captain of the Enterprise, then things might have been different. But they weren't.
The crew was already in efficient working order and had the abilities to deal with the crisis situation. Jellico's changes were unnecessary and poorly implemented.
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Old August 8 2014, 06:22 PM   #112
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Re: StarFleet Officers that are A..h...s

Disco wrote: View Post
The crew was already in efficient working order.
Jellico switch a diplomatic explorer into a warship. Given Picard ridiculous feelings on Starfleet not being a military this was a necessary move on Jellico's part.

If the Excelsiors are the combat ships of Starfleet, then giving one of those ship's captains to the Enterprise was the right move.

And again remember, Jellico did suceed in his mission, using his methods.

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Old August 8 2014, 09:48 PM   #113
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Re: StarFleet Officers that are A..h...s

Disco wrote: View Post
The crew was already in efficient working order and had the abilities to deal with the crisis situation. Jellico's changes were unnecessary and poorly implemented.
What proof are you basing that on? Efficient working order & completely prepped for a nearly impossible task are entirely different
Disco wrote: View Post
Being the Captain and therefore must be right and must be followed is not justifcation.
That absolutely is exactly what it means. That's the very definition of being a commanding officer. He is right & his orders are followed, unless he is so wrong that it is a breach of their code of conduct or his oath, & he thereby should be relieved. Are you saying Jellico should've been relieved for his behavior? I can't imagine you would be, so then he's right, and not only are his reasons in large part unknown to the audience and the crew, but are also moot
Salinga wrote: View Post
The only reason while Jellice needed to change the routines on the 1701-D was the fact, that he wasnt capable to adapt to a new environment.
What are you basing that on besides your surface impression of the man?
Salinga wrote: View Post
Picard gave Jellico a well oiled machine to solve the task ahead. And instead of solving the task ahead and concentrate on that, Jellico made everyone concentrate on reconfiguring this machine, which was a unneccesary distraction from the task ahead.
Again, on what fact's are you basing the assumption that the ship was prepped for the task ahead? By Picard's own past admission, the 1701-D is not a wartime vessel, & that's what Jellico expected it to become in a dire hurry.
Salinga wrote: View Post
Riker was right: Jellico was a bad captain. That guy didnt have his priorities right. His task was to deal with the Cardassians, not to reconfigure the ships routine, redecorate the captains office and put peoples in uniform
All the things he did were to better fortify his chances of success, (Which he attained) arguably even how he wanted his ready room. It's where he must do his work & prepare himself. It should be the way he needs it, to suit that purpose
In real life he would be one of those CEOs who fail at the important tasks and when they have to go, they give themselves credit for making a fine job, because his office was decorated nicely, the people were all proper dressed, and everyone bowed to the CEO, because thats what a successfull enterprise is all about!
He's not a CEO or somebody's boss. He's a commanding officer. There is a monumental difference
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Old August 8 2014, 10:30 PM   #114
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Re: StarFleet Officers that are A..h...s

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Jellico switch a diplomatic explorer into a warship. Given Picard ridiculous feelings on Starfleet not being a military this was a necessary move on Jellico's part.
You know... I think where a lot of people's thinking goes amiss on this point is that they think that the Enterprise wouldn't need much change to become the wartime vessel that Jellico was tasked with making it, in short order, but we do have a standing example of a wartime Enterprise, albeit in an alt-timeline, in Yesterday's Enterprise.

It was still the same ship & nearly the same crew, but it looked completely different. It looks fairly evident to me there could've been different duty rosters, & shift breakdowns, energy consumption protocols, or systems allocations going on there. Is it that much of a leap to suggest that Jellico may have needed to do some of what they had going on there, for this mission?

Where the story goes slightly wrong is that they should have gone further. The minute the new captain stepped aboard, one of the 1st things he should have ordered is to stop at a starbase or colony & evacuate all the children, families, schoolteachers, & various other nonessential personnel right off the damn ship, & then there'd have been no question that THIS was not your daddy's Enterprise anymore.

Although, the kids on board thing was always a taboo topic that they skirted as often as possible
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Old August 9 2014, 04:06 AM   #115
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Re: StarFleet Officers that are A..h...s

Mojochi wrote: View Post
What proof are you basing that on?
The same "proof" you are basing your personal individual interpretations on: On the fictional script of an episode constructed by Star Trek writers and producers employed by Paramount Pictures.

I hope you know there is no jurisdiction in fictional worlds.
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Old August 9 2014, 01:58 PM   #116
Mojochi
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Re: StarFleet Officers that are A..h...s

Salinga wrote: View Post
Mojochi wrote: View Post
What proof are you basing that on?
The same "proof" you are basing your personal individual interpretations on: On the fictional script of an episode constructed by Star Trek writers and producers employed by Paramount Pictures.

I hope you know there is no jurisdiction in fictional worlds.
That's a cop out. I'm basing what I've written on the evidence present in the show. I'm citing examples when I make a claim, and not just passing judgement on a character without basis. What's the whole purpose of discussing plot points and characters if not to adhere to some logic rooted in the evidence presented?

People condemn Jellico as a bad leader, claiming he had no reason or necessity beyond personal inadequacies for doing or saying what he did, when the evidence within is to the contrary. He captain's his own ship with distinction. He is immaculately prepared. Starfleet command is agreed that he is the best candidate, and ultimately he gets the crew to operate to his necessary specifications, such that they succeed masterfully.

All I'm asking is for someone to provide some concrete basis for the claim that he had no reason to do as he did. That "proof". All that's ever said is that it was upsetting to the senior staff. Well, a crisis usually is, especially one where a key team member is replaced. Or people claim that because these changes seem new compared to how the ship normally ran under Picard, that it was unnecessary. Well nothing about this situation is normal, and there's no evidence within the series to support the claim that he was out of line with his orders

He had complete success in his mission, and of several hundred crew members, there was only one who he had irreconcilable differences with, and even then, he swallowed his pride for the mission's sake and brought him back in as a contributing member. It should also be pointed out that the one guy he has unresolvable issues with just happened to be the guy who thought HE should've been given command, but was denied. Sour grapes much?

Because Picard is arguably a better captain doesn't suggest that Jelllico is a bad one, and because a biased 1st officer called him one does not make it so
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Old August 9 2014, 03:50 PM   #117
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Re: StarFleet Officers that are A..h...s

Mojochi wrote: View Post
That's a cop out.
Wanting proof inside a fictional world is a cop out, because a fictional world has no truth, its all a phantasy. I understand that you request "proof", since it is in your interest, since no proof can be provided inside a fictional world. Makes it very easy for you.

I suggest you continue discussing without requesting "proof", but I am pretty sure you wont, since it is not in your interest. It just would make things much more difficult for you.
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Old August 9 2014, 05:49 PM   #118
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Re: StarFleet Officers that are A..h...s

I provide evidence of my claims all the time, or I don't make the claim. There are 7 seasons of material that can be used to support claims in a discussion about this show. That's what a discussion is. I make a statement about something and then I provide things which back it up, and I sometimes ask others to do the same. Maybe I get PROVED right, or get proved wrong. That it is fiction doesn't mean it completely lacks a context from which to draw those conclusions. Why are you even on a board discussing the finer points of a show, if not to do that?

What you are essentially saying is that anything you write about this show is irrefutable, because it's fiction. That's nonsense. I could call Picard a hermaphrodite, even though there is no evidence of this in the show, and several things that indicate the contrary, but because it's fiction, I'm just as right as anyone who refutes my claim, provides evidence to support their position, and asks me to do the same, solely because it a fictional show. I'm not asking you to provide physics formulas. I just expect you to back up your claim with stuff from within the show to support it, but you're not going to do that, because you don't have any, and that's not because it's all a fantasy, it's because your claim is baseless
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Old August 9 2014, 07:45 PM   #119
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Re: StarFleet Officers that are A..h...s

Salinga wrote: View Post
Wanting proof inside a fictional world is a cop out, because a fictional world has no truth, its all a phantasy.
Picard is bald. The ship has a saucer. Beverly is Wesley's mom. Worf is a Klingon. These are truths. I think you're confused
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Old August 12 2014, 10:19 AM   #120
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Re: StarFleet Officers that are A..h...s

Mojochi wrote: View Post
Disco wrote: View Post
The crew was already in efficient working order and had the abilities to deal with the crisis situation. Jellico's changes were unnecessary and poorly implemented.
What proof are you basing that on? Efficient working order & completely prepped for a nearly impossible task are entirely different
Disco wrote: View Post
Being the Captain and therefore must be right and must be followed is not justifcation.
That absolutely is exactly what it means. That's the very definition of being a commanding officer. He is right & his orders are followed, unless he is so wrong that it is a breach of their code of conduct or his oath, & he thereby should be relieved. Are you saying Jellico should've been relieved for his behavior? I can't imagine you would be, so then he's right, and not only are his reasons in large part unknown to the audience and the crew, but are also mootWhat are you basing that on besides your surface impression of the man? Again, on what fact's are you basing the assumption that the ship was prepped for the task ahead? By Picard's own past admission, the 1701-D is not a wartime vessel, & that's what Jellico expected it to become in a dire hurry.
Salinga wrote: View Post
Riker was right: Jellico was a bad captain. That guy didnt have his priorities right. His task was to deal with the Cardassians, not to reconfigure the ships routine, redecorate the captains office and put peoples in uniform
All the things he did were to better fortify his chances of success, (Which he attained) arguably even how he wanted his ready room. It's where he must do his work & prepare himself. It should be the way he needs it, to suit that purpose
In real life he would be one of those CEOs who fail at the important tasks and when they have to go, they give themselves credit for making a fine job, because his office was decorated nicely, the people were all proper dressed, and everyone bowed to the CEO, because thats what a successfull enterprise is all about!
He's not a CEO or somebody's boss. He's a commanding officer. There is a monumental difference
Commanding officers are not always right and regularly make mistakes. But regardless it was they way that Jellico implemented the changes that made him an asshole. If he engaged the crew he would have more success.

The crew were operating well because they were the flagship of the fleet and had already successfully faced numerous foes.

What evidence do you have that the changes were necessary and needed to be done quickly?
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