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Future of Trek Discussion of future Trek projects.

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Old August 7 2014, 02:52 AM   #91
The Stig
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Re: Looks like Netflix is interested in making a New Star Trek Show

Just because the ship and crew are exploring new worlds each week doesn't mean there's no room for serialized drama. It's a group of people crammed into a metal tube a million million miles from home. They aren't always going to get along.
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Old August 7 2014, 07:59 AM   #92
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Re: Looks like Netflix is interested in making a New Star Trek Show

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Studios would rather have more viewers than "fans." Fans alone can't keep a Trek series afloat.
fans can certainly kill a series. it's been done.
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Old August 7 2014, 10:43 AM   #93
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Re: Looks like Netflix is interested in making a New Star Trek Show

wulfio wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Studios would rather have more viewers than "fans." Fans alone can't keep a Trek series afloat.
fans can certainly kill a series. it's been done.
Nah, it's just a case of not enough people in general being interested in a series. There are many short-lived shows that have had very vocal fans, but very low viewership. On the other hand, you have shows that seem to have no fans (like Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda), that go on for years because they had enough overall viewers.
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Old August 7 2014, 11:04 AM   #94
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Re: Looks like Netflix is interested in making a New Star Trek Show

Yah.

What does a show with low viewership and vocal fans have to do with my point?

You're comparing apples and oranges.

A show like SGU for example had a decent production budget because it was based on the successful stargate franchise. They had a built in audience. The franchise had the clout to warrant that sort of investment. A large number of the fans were incensed at the departure from the typical SG tone. It was a significant investment to make this show happen. And with the fan back lash, by having your target audience not even give the show a chance, it resulted in failure.

You can argue the quality of SGU if you want. But lets be honest, if SGA had the support to run for 5 seasons, and that show was not good, then there's no reason SGU couldn't either. It failed because the fans killed it.

Similarly, Star Trek fans killed Enterprise. There's no disputing it. By the time people started coming on board it was too little too late.

A show like Andromeda had an extremely low production budget, so was able to survive with a much smaller fan base for an extended period of time.

If someone green lights a Star Trek project, it's not going to be cheap. A property like Star Trek has a built in audience, and a network would be completely idiotic to ignore the wants of the massive built in audience that already exists. Making a blockbuster is a completely different animal from making serial television. And while an expensive heartless, action oriented film with absolutely no depth can make a billion at the box office(see transformers), you can't run a tv show with the same formula for more than a season or 2(terra nova).

Last edited by wulfio; August 7 2014 at 11:19 AM.
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Old August 7 2014, 11:15 AM   #95
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Re: Looks like Netflix is interested in making a New Star Trek Show

wulfio wrote: View Post
Yah.

What does a show with low viewership and vocal fans have to do with my point?
It has everything to do with my point. Fans can't really make or break a series by themselves. Shows ultimately survive or fail on their ability to grab as many viewers as they can, not just a core fanbase.
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Old August 7 2014, 01:01 PM   #96
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Re: Looks like Netflix is interested in making a New Star Trek Show

Trek fans didn't kill Enterprise at all. You mean to tell me most of the die-hards never watched that show? Come off it! They may have moaned to hell & back about it but they watched it. Enterprise died because nobody else bothered - it was a 1993 show in an era of increasing Lost-style serialised 'event' TV, or at least it started that way; forcing it in its last two seasons to adapt to survive.

Fans of any major franchise, when it comes to the broad numbers, make or break very little.
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Old August 7 2014, 03:14 PM   #97
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Re: Looks like Netflix is interested in making a New Star Trek Show

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Trek fans didn't kill Enterprise at all. You mean to tell me most of the die-hards never watched that show? Come off it! They may have moaned to hell & back about it but they watched it. Enterprise died because nobody else bothered - it was a 1993 show in an era of increasing Lost-style serialised 'event' TV, or at least it started that way; forcing it in its last two seasons to adapt to survive.

Fans of any major franchise, when it comes to the broad numbers, make or break very little.
This, this, a million times, this.

We don't matter, since we'll all watch it anyway. I hate-watched Enterprise for four seasons so I could bitch about it on the old TrekWeb forums.

I'm not proud of that, but it happened all the same. I'm a fan of Star Trek, so much so that I even tried to sit through the Star Trek Continues drek-fest. I'll watch anything Star Trek, no matter how ill-advised, for at least an episode.
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Old August 7 2014, 04:00 PM   #98
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Re: Looks like Netflix is interested in making a New Star Trek Show

Yeah, Enterprise's pilot had something like 12 million viewers, right? And then it quickly dropped off to 4 within a couple episodes. That has nothing to do with fans, it just means the general audience didn't care about the premise of the show.

Fans were already frothing at the mouth before "Broken Bow" even premiered. They lambasted the "Akiraprise", times to Qo'noS from leaked scripts, and the first contact with Klingons not being disastrous enough. None of this affected the fact that a reasonable sized audience tuned in for that premiere and still gave it a chance. Because basically the general audience doesn't give two shits about what some fanboys are saying. I know I don't when it comes to franchises that I'm only mildly interested in.
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Old August 7 2014, 07:06 PM   #99
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Re: Looks like Netflix is interested in making a New Star Trek Show

VST wrote: View Post
Trek fans didn't kill Enterprise at all. You mean to tell me most of the die-hards never watched that show? Come off it! They may have moaned to hell & back about it but they watched it. Enterprise died because nobody else bothered - it was a 1993 show in an era of increasing Lost-style serialised 'event' TV, or at least it started that way; forcing it in its last two seasons to adapt to survive.

Fans of any major franchise, when it comes to the broad numbers, make or break very little.
This is pretty much right on. I didn't watch Enterprise because it became hard to like any of the protagonists from the get go. Same thing with Voyager really. Although I was younger and stuck with it longer.

If Netflix brings back a Star Trek show I'm all for it and will probably watch it. I just hope it's got characters and better writing.
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Old August 7 2014, 10:01 PM   #100
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Re: Looks like Netflix is interested in making a New Star Trek Show

VST wrote: View Post
Trek fans didn't kill Enterprise at all. You mean to tell me most of the die-hards never watched that show? Come off it! They may have moaned to hell & back about it but they watched it. Enterprise died because nobody else bothered - it was a 1993 show in an era of increasing Lost-style serialised 'event' TV, or at least it started that way; forcing it in its last two seasons to adapt to survive.

Fans of any major franchise, when it comes to the broad numbers, make or break very little.
I didn't watch it when it aired, I couldn't be bothered. You want to say it was "bad", and general audience didn't like it so bailed. Guess what, there's more trek fans than you think. Just because you're on this board doesn't mean you are a trek fan, and everyone else that's not on here isn't. Just because you don't speak Klingon doesn't mean you're not a trek fan. Berman and Braga made a show that didn't appeal to the fan base. You think those 12 million that tuned in never saw star trek before, and think the franchise is silly? Those 12 million grew up with tos, or tng, or ds9, or voyager.

Furthermore, point still stands with SGU, it was a boycott of the show.

But hey, you all are entitled to your own opinion, and I don't share it.

A large fan base like one that exists for Star Trek and other successful franchises can certainly make or break a series. I'm having a hard time understanding how you guys think a franchise would intentionally look to ignore their existing customer base. In business terms, that's called idiocy, and putting you on the fast track to shortening your products life cycle.
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Old August 7 2014, 10:17 PM   #101
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Re: Looks like Netflix is interested in making a New Star Trek Show

The thing is, going back to the original topic of Trek on Netflix, a limited-reach network like that is going to have to depend on the fan base to watch. If they do, great. If they don't, it's sunk.

Not everyone has Netflix (I don't), just like not everyone has HBO, Showtime, whatever. The investment for putting a high-cost show on would have to have a high return on investment. If I were a Netflix exec I'd have to see numbers that would guarantee a break-even point early on, or it wouldn't be worth the trouble.

My opinion.
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Old August 7 2014, 10:21 PM   #102
Ryan8bit
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Re: Looks like Netflix is interested in making a New Star Trek Show

wulfio wrote: View Post
Just because you're on this board doesn't mean you are a trek fan, and everyone else that's not on here isn't. Just because you don't speak Klingon doesn't mean you're not a trek fan. Berman and Braga made a show that didn't appeal to the fan base. You think those 12 million that tuned in never saw star trek before, and think the franchise is silly? Those 12 million grew up with tos, or tng, or ds9, or voyager.
I think you're defining "fan" differently than was the original intent.

Sure, there are lots of casual fans, but there are also those high-strung ones that get upset when stardates don't match or when ships aren't the right size. Those are the ones that were referred to, and I don't believe they have any affect on what studios decide to do with their properties. Nor does Hollywood.
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Old August 7 2014, 11:57 PM   #103
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Re: Looks like Netflix is interested in making a New Star Trek Show

Yeah that's really the crux of what you're saying Wulfio - what defines a *fan*?

Answering that really does get to the root of the argument about their interest in Trek. You can flip this one over and say said fan base can *make* a Trek show, or film. Would you say said fans made STID earn just shy of $500 million at the box office? Because I doubt that. Abrams made two films that appealed not just to (some) Trek fans, but a broad cross section of viewers who either casually watched it, or indeed never saw it before. That's the point. It's that cross-section who define a success or not, as opposed to the fan base.

You also have to remember, creatives like Berman/Braga/Behr etc… are trying to make shows for the fan base, but Paramount & the studios? They care far less about fandom than they do making money. And they will always always reign supreme.
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Old August 8 2014, 06:22 AM   #104
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Re: Looks like Netflix is interested in making a New Star Trek Show

I'm not talking about super fan boys that quibble over minutia.

I don't know I'd call them casual fans, because they get what star trek is about. whoopi goldberg for instance, can't tell you the distance between qo'nos and earth, but she loves trek. There's a lot of people out there like that.

People tuned in to star trek to see something with heart. People tuned in to stargate to see macguyver(or someone doing an impersonation) hamming it up. Franchises have an identity. To ignore your fan bases wants without doing your due diligence in market research would be stupid is my point. Because when the big wigs ignore it, it's happened in the past that the fans will impact the success of the property and kill it.

I saw someone say people don't care what the fans want. I think that's an absurd statement.

As for STID, as I said, in my opinion I think there's a big difference between a summer blockbuster, and serial television. I don't think STID style would have the same success as a tv show. It would run, but I really don't believe it would have legs. Definitely no more than a show like V or Terra Nova. In my circle of influence, the majority of people I know that watched and enjoyed STID could not be bothered to follow a tv show, let alone one about star trek. They will however take a date/partner to the movie, and watch it. Fans make a tv show, making a successful movie is entirely different.

And on to your final point, I agree. Studio's might not care, but the threads topic is about a tv show. And to make a tv show with a complete disregard to that franchises fan base, is in my opinion, idiocy.

Last edited by wulfio; August 8 2014 at 06:35 AM.
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Old August 8 2014, 09:57 AM   #105
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Re: Looks like Netflix is interested in making a New Star Trek Show

You go from one extreme to the other in your points here. It's all about balance.

Look, of course a studio in an ideal world will want a fan base to be happy - nobody's gonna sit around a table and actively go 'right what can we do to fuck off all those guys in their mom's basement who buy our Spock action figures?'. But whether it's on TV or at the movies, the same point applies - they want a Trek project that will garner as many viewers as possible. At the movies, it's box office receipts. On the box, it's viewing figures which justify funding a show long enough to hit the magic 100 episodes so they can syndicate the series forever & a day & make endless cashloola. So many shows die quickly now because networks shovel a ton of money into a product & demand an immediate return, from a broad viewer base.

To bring this back to the original topic, if Netflix therefore were going to make a Trek show these days, it's not for the fans as much as everyone who buys that service. Like I said, most Trek fans would watch regardless, as they did with ENT. Most Trek fans' idea of what a new series should be is also a combo of either desperate fanwank, hopelessly old fashioned or steadfastly 'pure Trek'. None of that will sell these days. Sexier, flashier, punchier nuTOS, whether you like it or not, is what sells now. And if Trek wants to survive another series, that's pretty much what it needs to be.
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