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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old August 3 2014, 09:17 PM   #16
BillJ
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Re: There Were Two Stargazers

T'Girl wrote: View Post
The thing that stand out to me Timo is Picard twice stated in The Battle that just prior to Battle of Maxia, he was the helmsman. Which implies that he wasn't the ship's captain at the time.

He says he did what "any good helmsman could have done". That doesn't mean he was the helmsman.

In his dream state, he's shown sitting in the captain's chair. Wouldn't have been much of a command if he had only been captain for fifteen minutes. When he returns to the Stargazer to attack the Enterprise, he once again sits in the captain's chair.

I think he was the captain already.
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Old August 3 2014, 10:14 PM   #17
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Re: There Were Two Stargazers

^ I agree. I just checked the transcript, and the Stargazer crew called him "captain" when he was reliving the battle. (I know that naval tradition says the ship commander can be called "captain" regardless of rank, but we pretty much see the incident from the beginning, and there's no "original" captain that gets killed causing Picard to take over, or anything like that.) As well, Picard refers to Vigo as "my weapons officer", which would be strange phrasing if Picard was only the helmsman.

The bigger question is... why didn't Starfleet send a ship to recover the Stargazer sometime in the past nine years? Picard had to abandon ship, but he knew it didn't blow up, and he knew where they left it. Yar mentions that except for six torpedoes, the ship was fully armed. You wouldn't think Starfleet would want to leave a fully armed ship lying around for just anyone to find.
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Old August 4 2014, 12:15 AM   #18
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Re: There Were Two Stargazers

Yeah, Picard simply says he did what any good helmsman would have done, but Riker seems to think Picard is being overly modest in this regard. Picard says that he "did what any good helmsman would have done" but he says this as a man who's served as a helmsman, since in the flashbacks we do see him in the Captain's chair.

Memory Alpha (a Wiki based of "canon" Star Trek works) has Picard taking command of the ship, Jack Crusher dying on an away mission, the ship operating in the Cardassian Wars and then the Battle at Maxia. Taking place over the course of twenty-some years.

While the dates are assumed, we're told enough over the course of the series about Picard's time on the Stargazer to know he served on it for quite some time and it's clear to me that the incident where Picard took command, prompting him to be given command, is different than the incident where Picard lost the Stargazer.

As for what became of the Stargazer between the battle with the Ferengi and "The Battle"? Canonically we have no idea, "The Buried Age" by our very own Christopher covers this very nicely. in the book the ship was overly contaminated by radiation when the crew evacuated and the auto-destruct system failed. (Not really spoilers of the book since the incident on the Stargazer is a fairly small part. It can be assumed the Ferengi performed radiation clean-up of the ship before returning it to Picard.)

It's "maybe" possible to just believe the technology on the ship was old/already leaked to other races and the ship contained no sensitive information or technology to make Starfleet overly worried about it. Or maybe they *had* been looking for the ship but were never able to recover it.
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Old August 4 2014, 12:22 AM   #19
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Re: There Were Two Stargazers

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
"THERE...IS...ONE...STARGAZER!!!!!!!"
I came into this thread to say only that. Well played.
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Old August 4 2014, 01:08 AM   #20
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Re: There Were Two Stargazers

Rick Sternbach has stated that the desktop model was always meant to represent Picard's previous command (The Stargazer), although ironically it was quickly replaced by an AMT Enterprise-A model for "The Battle" when the possibility existed that a new filming model wouldn't be ready in time and they might have had to reuse the TMP Enterprise for the Stargazer. Luckily that didn't happen.

As for the 7100 registry? Aside from what's been already stated about reusing the decals from the AMT kit, there's another way to look at it in-universe: The model could have just been a representation of his ship class. When I worked at the Naval Academy gift shop, we sold wooden model airplane replicas. The models just had generic registry numbers on them (all the same number). So if someone bought the model because he once flew that kind of plane and wanted a replica of it for his desk, it wouldn't have the same registry as his original plane, but would still be a representation of it. That's probably why the desktop Stargazer didn't have a name. Captain Zimbatta might have had the exact same NCC-7100 model in his ready room on the Victory...
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Old August 4 2014, 01:56 AM   #21
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Re: There Were Two Stargazers

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
As for what became of the Stargazer between the battle with the Ferengi and "The Battle"? Canonically we have no idea, "The Buried Age" by our very own Christopher covers this very nicely. in the book the ship was overly contaminated by radiation when the crew evacuated and the auto-destruct system failed.
Ugh!! Yet another instance of the auto-destruct failing. That excuse has been used so many times on screen it's ridiculous. While I haven't read the book, I hope the circumstances surrounding the failure of the auto-destruct was a little more creative than the computer voice simply saying "auto-destruct is offline."
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Old August 4 2014, 12:34 PM   #22
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Re: There Were Two Stargazers

You wouldn't think Starfleet would want to leave a fully armed ship lying around for just anyone to find.
Starfleet might be too short on resources to do anything about a ship lost so far out that the evacuees would "drift for weeks" in their shuttlecraft. OTOH, it may be they did go and have a look at the system, despite knowing an enemy stalks there - and found nothing, as the Ferengi had already towed away the hulk.

Canonically we have no idea, "The Buried Age" by our very own Christopher covers this very nicely. in the book the ship was overly contaminated by radiation when the crew evacuated and the auto-destruct system failed.
The problem with that is that Picard himself doesn't seem to think the ship would have been destroyed - that is, it appears he never made any attempt to destroy her. He's happy with her "finding her own way", in a log entry apparently made just before he left the ship. Nor is Picard sufficiently surprised that the ship is still intact in "The Battle".

So a botched scuttling attempt doesn't really fit the picture. The idea that the ship would have been difficult to scuttle is all right and well - we know autodestruct charges can malfunction. But apparently in such cases Starfleet does not require the skipper to go out of his way to destroy the ship by some other means; leaving her lying about is acceptable. (In contrast, no dialogue suggests scuttling would be a required maneuver in any context, and our heroes typically only use scuttling as a blackmail tool or a way of taking a few enemies with them.)

As for the 7100 registry? Aside from what's been already stated about reusing the decals from the AMT kit, there's another way to look at it in-universe: The model could have just been a representation of his ship class.
Makes sense. OTOH, in the age of effortless replication of trinkets, it could also be that a generic model was replicated and then a very special number was painted on it before the item was handed over to Picard as a gift. Perhaps 7100 was the transporter number of an attractive lady from Picard's past, or his score in the Academy Septathlon, or the sum he owed Walker Keel?

That excuse has been used so many times on screen it's ridiculous.
Let's remember that basically none of our heroes are suicidal. Auto-destruct is not a means of committing suicide, it's a means of scuttling the ship without harm to the crew - hence the countdown and the warnings and all. If the countdown timer doesn't work, there are a zillion ways of destroying the ship - but few or none to do it so that the crew survives.

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Old August 4 2014, 04:55 PM   #23
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Re: There Were Two Stargazers

trekshark wrote: View Post
tharpdevenport wrote: View Post
It's just a case of the TNG writers not remembering (or even knowing) there was actually a ship with that name before.


As I recall, that's just like D.S.9.; I recall there beign a Defiant in the TOS series as well, with different call mumbers.
I don't see where the DS9 Defiant having the same name as a ship lost 100 years prior is an issue
Agreed. I always assumed it an intentional homage to the original series ship of that name. Am I imagining that Ronald D. Moore actually said so during an interview?
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Old August 4 2014, 07:08 PM   #24
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Re: There Were Two Stargazers

MarsWeeps wrote: View Post
Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
As for what became of the Stargazer between the battle with the Ferengi and "The Battle"? Canonically we have no idea, "The Buried Age" by our very own Christopher covers this very nicely. in the book the ship was overly contaminated by radiation when the crew evacuated and the auto-destruct system failed.
Ugh!! Yet another instance of the auto-destruct failing. That excuse has been used so many times on screen it's ridiculous. While I haven't read the book, I hope the circumstances surrounding the failure of the auto-destruct was a little more creative than the computer voice simply saying "auto-destruct is offline."
I haven't read it in some time, but from what I remember they didn't so much set the autodestruct as the antimatter containment was failing rapidly from the ships power grid collapsing.

They all took to the life rafts and assumed the ship would blow up itself but it successfully jetisoned the antimatter pods. Leading to the plot point of the Stargazer being flat out of antimatter and the ability to make her own in the TNG episode. And I think their detonation leading everyone to believe the ship had actually been lost.
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Old August 4 2014, 07:53 PM   #25
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Re: There Were Two Stargazers

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Rick Sternbach has stated that the desktop model was always meant to represent Picard's previous command (The Stargazer), although ironically it was quickly replaced by an AMT Enterprise-A model for "The Battle" when the possibility existed that a new filming model wouldn't be ready in time and they might have had to reuse the TMP Enterprise for the Stargazer. Luckily that didn't happen.
I read that the reason the model was pulled from the ready room set was so it could be used as a reference for Jein's team to construct the Stargazer filming model. In one scene, Levar Burton does say "Constitution" class, so they were planning on using the movie model, but couldn't get it or something, so they decided to build the model based on the kitbash, and then dub over that line with "Constellation".

I've studied that kitbash model, and it's really neat. A couple of AMT Enterprise kits, pieces from a Gundam kit, pieces from a Battleship Yamato kit, and other various Anime model pieces. I was able to find the exact model kits used, and buy them along with a vacuuform kit of the Stargazer in my closet (same scale as the ready room model), which I hope to build someday.
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Old August 4 2014, 08:52 PM   #26
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Re: There Were Two Stargazers

They all took to the life rafts and assumed the ship would blow up itself but it successfully jetisoned the antimatter pods.
I recall that when everything else failed, Picard set a destructive course towards a planet, but the ship merely skipped off the atmosphere and floated safely to outer space. Probably both things happened in the story...

Leading to the plot point of the Stargazer being flat out of antimatter and the ability to make her own in the TNG episode. And I think their detonation leading everyone to believe the ship had actually been lost.
We don't need to postulate the ability to make antimatter if we don't claim the pods blew. These things are supposed to be idiot-proof and all; safely keeping the antimatter in store for half a century might not be much of a problem.

The same goes for the longer-idled Hathaway in "Peak Performance", although that ship could have been refilled by the E-D. Of course, the Stargazer could have been refilled by the Ferengi, at no extra cost (The shame! The shame!).

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Old August 4 2014, 09:54 PM   #27
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Re: There Were Two Stargazers

Okay, flipping through the relevant chapter of the book The Buried Age this is what happens:

After the battle is over the ship is overwhelmed by fires and explosions, so many that the fire crews/suppression systems cannot contain the blazes so Picard makes the decision to abandon ship. It seems the plan is to decompress the ship through various hatches and vents to extinguish the fire and maybe return to the ship (?.) Once the crew is evacuated one of the engineering crew reports to Picard that not all of the venting hatches have opened and that fire is still raging in the engineering sections of the ship, then he reports that the plutonium containers have ruptured and the radiation contamination is spreading through the ship and they haven't the gear to return to the ship to decontaminate, so the ship is a loss.

They cannot make a connection with the ship's computer to initiate the auto-destruct, the shuttles/escape pods don't have the armaments to destroy the ship tactically, nor can they spare a micro-warp core from a shuttle to destroy the ship. Their only hope is that as they never made a stable orbit around a Jovian planet that the ship will be pulled into the planet and destroyed by the crushing gravity. While they can hasten process with the shuttles the risk of loss of life/equipment not to mention the fuel loss isn't worth the risk.

So they leave the ship abandoned assuming that with in a few days/couple of weeks it'll be pulled down into the Jovian planet.

Now, again, this is from a novel and isn't "canon" but is decent enough "speculative fiction" on what may have happened that sort of tries to explain the abandoning of the ship (they only left the ship "temporarily to try and stop the fires by decompressing the ship) but how the ship ended up not destroyed (the ship became contaminated with radiation they couldn't clean up so they couldn't return; and they couldn't make a connection with the ship to initiate the self-destruct. They assumed the ship would be destroyed within a few days as it got pulled into a nearby planet.) And leaves open the idea how the ship fell into Ferengi hands. (The Ferengi found the ship before it succumbed to the crushing gravity of the Jovian planet, effected radiation clean-up of the ship and Bok then decided to use the ship to try and to get revenge on Picard.... 10 years later.)

ETA:

AH.

The next section of the chapter has Bok finding the ship in a decaying orbit (it seems the ship hit the atmosphere at the right angle, bounced off and entered into a new decaying orbit. Bok recovers the ship and decides to use to get revenge on the loss of his only male heir, against the advice of the crew and without consideration of the profit that could be gained from the secrets and technology in the ship.
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Old August 4 2014, 10:51 PM   #28
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Re: There Were Two Stargazers

I'd enjoy reading an author's take on the Stargazer incident, along with the court martial and the Picard/Louvois relationship. Is The Buried Age the one? I'm aware there's a Stargazer line of books.
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Old August 4 2014, 11:14 PM   #29
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Re: There Were Two Stargazers

jimbotron wrote: View Post
I'd enjoy reading an author's take on the Stargazer incident, along with the court martial and the Picard/Louvois relationship. Is The Buried Age the one? I'm aware there's a Stargazer line of books.
The Buried Age touches on the Stargazer incident and resulting trial, but only slightly It more deals with the seven/eight year "gap" between the loss of the Stargazer and Picard taking command of the Enterprise. It's actually a very good book and it was written by board-member Christopher.
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Old August 5 2014, 12:03 AM   #30
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Re: There Were Two Stargazers

jimbotron wrote: View Post
I read that the reason the model was pulled from the ready room set was so it could be used as a reference for Jein's team to construct the Stargazer filming model. In one scene, Levar Burton does say "Constitution" class, so they were planning on using the movie model, but couldn't get it or something, so they decided to build the model based on the kitbash, and then dub over that line with "Constellation".
Yeah, what I think happened was this (and someone more in the know can correct me if I'm wrong): They did indeed pull the model so that Jein could use it as a reference. However, during filming of the episode it was determined that Jein wouldn't have the filming model done in time for the post-production VFX, so they filmed the ep with the intention that the Stargazer would be a reuse of the TMP Enterprise (the TMP desktop model, Geordi saying "Constitution class," etc.). But Jein did have his model ready by post, so they went back and dubbed over Geordi's line before the ep was broadcast, and in subsequent episodes the yellow desktop model was returned to the ready room.
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