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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old July 30 2014, 11:57 PM   #31
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Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

"Thine Own Self" is another one of my favorites.
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Old July 31 2014, 12:05 AM   #32
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Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

AgentCoop wrote: View Post
I also love both "The Royale" and "Masks". Another favorite of mine that I think is less than popular is "Thine Own Self". I generally enjoy any Data-centric episode, but that one is offbeat enough to stand out.
"Thine Own Self" suffers from the Troi bridge officer test B-story. I really like the Data portions of it.
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Old July 31 2014, 01:43 AM   #33
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Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
GalaxyX wrote: View Post
Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
"Code of Honor" is one of my favorites. It was pretty cool having a cast of majority dark-skinned individuals....but after the whining of alleged racism - primarily from white viewers - we never really saw a planet that was majority dark-skinned again. We only got a mention of the Ligonians in "First Duty."

Of course, no one had problems with planets that had aliens visibly portrayed by white individuals in the franchise after that episode.

Some of the cries of racism are - which are, ironically, racist cries themselves are:
*"They're too tribal!" (So, basically, South Americans, Africans, and Asians still in tribes today better civilize themselves!)

*"How dare that black Lutan have an interest in white Tasha Yar! That's racist!" (Of course, no one has a problem with every Asian woman being paired with a white male in the Trek franchise, but it's a problem when a black male is opposite a non-black woman).

(That's the problem when you have primarily white males behind the scenes, rather than a diverse group, calling the shots).

I would have liked to have seen the Ligonians in a more stronger story in later seasons...but, alas, in the Berman-era even the extras were primarily white - just look at Enterprise.

"Lonely Among Us" is another favorite I watched a few days back. And, Data mimicking his idea of Sherlock Holmes was hilarious...

I have a few from Season 1 I will be watching...
I thought it would have been a great episode if the Ligonian culture would have been portrayed as other advanced cultures usually were (like in The Wounded, or The High Ground).

The story could have still worked out with some changes.

If I remember correctly, Lutan was interested in Yar, but she was also attracted to him.

I think somewhere down the line, they just really didn't think of how racist the episode would appear to be in the final product.
I haven't seen 'The High Ground' or 'The Wounded,' but yeah, you remember correctly: There was a mutual attraction between Yar and Lutan. Nothing wrong with that; it's not racist. Of course, those who have issues with interracial relationships involving black people are the ones racist. Black people can have relationships with people who are non-black. For example, I like Eurasian girls.

Trek, overseen primarily by white males, doesn't have a problem with Asian female/white male relationships, so there shouldn't have any problem with black male/non-black female relationships.

However, I think you're forgetting: A teleplay not strongly written doesn't equal racism just because an episode features a predominantly black cast or features black cast members or a black cast member. If that were true, we could possibly point to racist teleplays in how Geordi LaForge was depicted. For example, every other character was able to have healthy relationships, except Geordi. As aforementioned, there was no problem with the writers/producers putting yet another Asian woman in the Trek franchise with a white male in "Data's Day," but they had to write Geordi with failed relationships with everyone except an alien that was visibly portrayed by a black woman in 'Aquiel' - and even that lasted one episode.

And, everyone seems to handle themselves in hand-to-hand combat, yet Geordi seems to be a wimp.
Well I think the problem is that most of the time, Trek has been written to appeal to white males. So Geordi's relationship attempts are always with white chicks, simply because they are eye candy for the "supposed" majority viewer (MHO anyway).

From an in-universe perspective, I kept wanting to scream at Geordi "hello?? hello?? you're blind you idiot!! stop going after the hottest looking women on the ship!! Go for a more homely gal that feels good and you're set!

I thought Aquiel was a great episode, and I think they made her a black girl because the necessity of of the episode to do a serious love story required suspension of disbelief, and nobody was going to believe that the typical hot females he was going after would actually fall in love with him. So the writers came up with someone more in his league. I don't think it was necessary for them to make her black though. She could have been a more homely white chick.

I also remember clearly that another black girl (an Ensign) was crazy about him, and he kept shrugging her off. That girl was cute, and again, Geordi is fucking blind! His tastes in women should NOT be based on visual cues!

BillJ wrote: View Post
AgentCoop wrote: View Post
I also love both "The Royale" and "Masks". Another favorite of mine that I think is less than popular is "Thine Own Self". I generally enjoy any Data-centric episode, but that one is offbeat enough to stand out.
"Thine Own Self" suffers from the Troi bridge officer test B-story. I really like the Data portions of it.
The Data story was great except for the end. It would have been cool to have the people from that village find out what he really was. Man, that would have opened a can of worms, one that would have been cool to have a follow up on. Transporting him out of the ground secretly was a cop out IMO.

The Troi stuff was lame, as every story about her usually was (except maybe "Face of the Enemy"). She smugly goes to Data at the end "You may call me..Commander now".

So much for humility.
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Old July 31 2014, 02:58 AM   #34
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Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

I like a lot of season 7. While there was a decline in quality, I've never really got why anyone would act that the decline was anywhere close to bringing season 7 down to season 1 levels of awfulness, or even season 2 levels of "meh to really good".

Really, when I think of much maligned episodes, it's hard to think of many outside of s1 and s2. I have been rewatching season 1 lately because I have rewatched the later seasons so often that it's almost interesting to watch season 1 as a completely different show.

I am old enough that I watched most of these episodes as a kid, and for some reason even though Arsenal of Freedom is a pretty meh episode, for some reason it strikes the nostalgia cords just right and I love it every time I watch it.

Also, I think Symbiosis is a really good episode(not just as a personal favorite, but as an overall episode). I have heard it take some flack for being an after school special with Tasha and Wesley's scene about drug abuse. But I also thought it had a nice twist with the disease turning out to be drug addiction. But best of all, it was probably the most nuanced handling of the Prime Directive in the first season with Picard finding a creative, but not perfect, solution to helping the Ornarans.

I think the scene with Picard and Crusher in the turbolift really established that the Prime Directive in TNG wasn't just a dusty old frustrating plot impediment that kept keeping the crew from doing what seemed immediately "right". It was something that Picard believed in, and for good reason.

"... Beverly, the Prime Directive is not just a set of rules; it is a philosophy... and a very correct one. History has proved again and again that whenever mankind interferes with a less developed civilization, no matter how well intentioned that interference may be, the results are invariably disastrous."
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Old July 31 2014, 03:07 AM   #35
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Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

The Royale definitely. Love the way it just riffs on bad literature.

And nobody, in the world, ever, has complained about Code of Honor for a black man being interested in a white women. More the fact that he suddenly kidnaps her then tries to conscript her into marriage. Nobody would have ever complained if he simply asked her out on a date or had a consensual one night stand with her, and it's incredibly obnoxious that you refuse to acknowledge the distinction then cite the race of people who disagree with your opinion to discredit theirs.

Also if a TV show came out today with a group of black people who held a cure to a horrible disease hostage if the crew didn't respect ancient superstitions that involved holding a woman hostage against her will, it would be cancelled the next day and the showrunner would get a segment on Fox News.
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Old July 31 2014, 06:19 AM   #36
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Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

Imagine if the alien race in A Night in Sickbay had the same casting as Code of Honor. Yikes!
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Old July 31 2014, 06:28 AM   #37
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Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

Chairslinger wrote: View Post
Also, I think Symbiosis is a really good episode(not just as a personal favorite, but as an overall episode). I have heard it take some flack for being an after school special with Tasha and Wesley's scene about drug abuse. But I also thought it had a nice twist with the disease turning out to be drug addiction. But best of all, it was probably the most nuanced handling of the Prime Directive in the first season with Picard finding a creative, but not perfect, solution to helping the Ornarans.

I think the scene with Picard and Crusher in the turbolift really established that the Prime Directive in TNG wasn't just a dusty old frustrating plot impediment that kept keeping the crew from doing what seemed immediately "right". It was something that Picard believed in, and for good reason.

"... Beverly, the Prime Directive is not just a set of rules; it is a philosophy... and a very correct one. History has proved again and again that whenever mankind interferes with a less developed civilization, no matter how well intentioned that interference may be, the results are invariably disastrous."
While I agree it's a great speech and there's some excellent interplay (even conflict!) generated between the characters, it is rather undermined by Picard's own actions in episodes from earlier in the same season, leading to unfortunate contradictions. It's a shame he couldn't have been so clear cut in his principals when it came to the events of "Justice", or "Angel One".
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Old July 31 2014, 06:29 AM   #38
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Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

Off the top of my head, I love The Royale, Night Terrors, and everything with Lwaxana Troi.

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
And nobody, in the world, ever, has complained about Code of Honor for a black man being interested in a white women. More the fact that he suddenly kidnaps her then tries to conscript her into marriage. Nobody would have ever complained if he simply asked her out on a date or had a consensual one night stand with her, and it's incredibly obnoxious that you refuse to acknowledge the distinction then cite the race of people who disagree with your opinion to discredit theirs.

Also if a TV show came out today with a group of black people who held a cure to a horrible disease hostage if the crew didn't respect ancient superstitions that involved holding a woman hostage against her will, it would be cancelled the next day and the showrunner would get a segment on Fox News.
This.
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Old July 31 2014, 06:51 AM   #39
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Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
GalaxyX wrote: View Post

I thought it would have been a great episode if the Ligonian culture would have been portrayed as other advanced cultures usually were (like in The Wounded, or The High Ground).

The story could have still worked out with some changes.

If I remember correctly, Lutan was interested in Yar, but she was also attracted to him.

I think somewhere down the line, they just really didn't think of how racist the episode would appear to be in the final product.
I haven't seen 'The High Ground' or 'The Wounded,' but yeah, you remember correctly: There was a mutual attraction between Yar and Lutan. Nothing wrong with that; it's not racist. Of course, those who have issues with interracial relationships involving black people are the ones racist. Black people can have relationships with people who are non-black. For example, I like Eurasian girls.

Trek, overseen primarily by white males, doesn't have a problem with Asian female/white male relationships, so there shouldn't have any problem with black male/non-black female relationships.

However, I think you're forgetting: A teleplay not strongly written doesn't equal racism just because an episode features a predominantly black cast or features black cast members or a black cast member. If that were true, we could possibly point to racist teleplays in how Geordi LaForge was depicted. For example, every other character was able to have healthy relationships, except Geordi. As aforementioned, there was no problem with the writers/producers putting yet another Asian woman in the Trek franchise with a white male in "Data's Day," but they had to write Geordi with failed relationships with everyone except an alien that was visibly portrayed by a black woman in 'Aquiel' - and even that lasted one episode.

And, everyone seems to handle themselves in hand-to-hand combat, yet Geordi seems to be a wimp.
Well I think the problem is that most of the time, Trek has been written to appeal to white males. So Geordi's relationship attempts are always with white chicks, simply because they are eye candy for the "supposed" majority viewer (MHO anyway).

From an in-universe perspective, I kept wanting to scream at Geordi "hello?? hello?? you're blind you idiot!! stop going after the hottest looking women on the ship!! Go for a more homely gal that feels good and you're set!

I thought Aquiel was a great episode, and I think they made her a black girl because the necessity of of the episode to do a serious love story required suspension of disbelief, and nobody was going to believe that the typical hot females he was going after would actually fall in love with him. So the writers came up with someone more in his league. I don't think it was necessary for them to make her black though. She could have been a more homely white chick.

I also remember clearly that another black girl (an Ensign) was crazy about him, and he kept shrugging her off. That girl was cute, and again, Geordi is fucking blind! His tastes in women should NOT be based on visual cues!
Wow...

So, based on your perspective, they had Aquiel portrayed by a black woman because no one would believe a 'hot' female (e.g. a white female) would go for Geordi. (He's black for goodness sake!) So, they - the writers/producers - thought they should put him with someone in his league, someone 'black.'

According to you, since he was a blind black man he should have been put with a homely white girl (Asian woman need no apply, nor Latin women and attractive white women - those are for 'white' men!) if not a black woman.

Gotcha.


jimbotron wrote: View Post
Imagine if the alien race in A Night in Sickbay had the same casting as Code of Honor. Yikes!
I know huh! Too many black faces onscreen for some whites to handle, right?

Hey, imagine this: What if we had a well-written Star Trek show with a predominantly black cast! I'm sure you - and likeminded individuals - would hate that....! hahaha

Yikes indeed!

Last edited by Joel_Kirk; July 31 2014 at 07:24 AM.
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Old July 31 2014, 07:27 AM   #40
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Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

I like several of the crazy high concept episodes from later in the series, including "Masks" and "Genesis."

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
I know huh! Too many black faces onscreen for some whites to handle, right?

Hey, imagine this: What if we had a well-written Star Trek show with a predominantly black cast! I'm sure you - and likeminded individuals - would hate that....! hahaha

Yikes indeed!
This sort of thing is uncalled for. JirinPanthosa laid out a rather concise version of why the episode is problematic (for a longer version, Daniel Bernardi devotes fifteen pages to the subject in his book on Star Trek and race, which is worth reading if you really want to do this sort of thing as an academic) and it has nothing to do with fearing a predominantely black cast.
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Old July 31 2014, 07:36 AM   #41
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Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

Harvey wrote: View Post
I like several of the crazy high concept episodes from later in the series, including "Masks" and "Genesis."

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
I know huh! Too many black faces onscreen for some whites to handle, right?

Hey, imagine this: What if we had a well-written Star Trek show with a predominantly black cast! I'm sure you - and likeminded individuals - would hate that....! hahaha

Yikes indeed!
This sort of thing is uncalled for. JirinPanthosa laid out a rather concise version of why the episode is problematic (for a longer version, Daniel Bernardi devotes fifteen pages to the subject in his book on Star Trek and race, which is worth reading if you really want to do this sort of thing as an academic) and it has nothing to do with fearing a predominantely black cast.
First off, you might want to actually read the responses, particularly posts #33 and 34, before you try to tell me what I should and shouldn't be speaking out against. Those posters, in their own way, also give their little opinions on why the particular episode was problematic, as well as why certain black characters - Geordi LaForge - were portrayed the way they were.

And, I've read Daniel Bernardi's book, and I while I think he does make some interesting points, that doesn't change MY personal fascination with 'Code of Honor.' Just because some folks have a problem with it - the episode - and have a problem with black performers in Trek as we saw above doesn't mean I have to follow that line of thinking especially as a black man who watches Trek shows and plans on delving into the film/tv realm someday.

Fuck that noise.

So, no, it's not uncalled for. A diverse voice is much needed because there seems to be an abundance of misinformation - as well as individuals, in 2014 - who still see some individuals as inferior because of their skin color.

Last edited by Joel_Kirk; July 31 2014 at 07:51 AM.
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Old July 31 2014, 07:42 AM   #42
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Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

I've always had a lot of affection for ”The Royale.” The story. The fictional, pulpy characters right out of corny film noir. The peek into 21st century Earth space exploration before the invention of warp drive. How Riker and Data joyously milk almost every scene they're in.

It's campy, but occasionally creepy and eerie as well as when they discover the decaying remains of Colonel Richey and Riker reads from his diary. All in all, a ”bad” episode that I always enjoy and find a lot of fun after a quarter-century of reruns.
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Old July 31 2014, 07:50 AM   #43
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Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
So, no, it's not uncalled for. A diverse voice is much needed because there seems to be an abundance of misinformation.
Yeah, I don't have much sympathy for GalaxyX's views either. Fortunately relatively few posters here do, though, and I hope you don't do him the favour of earning an infraction on his account.
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Old July 31 2014, 07:55 AM   #44
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Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
First off, you might want to actually read the responses, particularly posts #33 and 34, before you try to tell me what I should and shouldn't be speaking out against. Those posters, in their own way, also give their little opinions on why the particular episode was problematic, as well as why certain black characters - Geordi LaForge - were portrayed the way they were.
Oh, I read them, and you'll notice I didn't object towards your response to post #33. The idea that Geordi should have gone after "homely gal[s]" because he was blind deserves to be called out as offensive, for a multitude of reasons.

Your reaction to jimbotron and others, however, was hyperbolic to say the least.
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Old July 31 2014, 07:57 AM   #45
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Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

Oh, and I also enjoy Brent Spiner's tour de force performance in ”Masks.” Two things are for sure with this episode: Masaka is waking, and haters gonna hate.
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