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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old July 30 2014, 07:02 PM   #31
Timo
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

We could speculate the porthole-free part of the neck contains a big fuel tank into which the upper part of the shaft taps, like in the TNG setup (going completely against Probert's original intentions, but closely mirroring his mid-1980s views).

Or we could speculate the TMP intermix shaft is nothing but a plasma conduit from the actual, but unseen, warp core to a variety of applications - the upper vertical bit going to the impulse engines but through a number of kinks, the horizontal one splitting into the warp nacelles, and the lower vertical coming up from the warp core which is armored somewhere deep down in the belly of the ship.

FWIW, the forward corridor issue could be satisfied by moving the intermix shaft (or whatever) aft roughly to the level of the lower aft endpoint of the neck. The lower part of the shaft would then penetrate into the big cargo hold, but to its forward part which we never saw, and would ultimately end in the ventral area with those big blue-glowing windows (reputed to be an arboretum, but the blue glow might instead indicate high-radiation activities).

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Old July 30 2014, 10:21 PM   #32
Maurice
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

Timo wrote: View Post
...To add insult to injury, it is also extended by a matte painting...
Translight, not matte painting.
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Old July 30 2014, 10:32 PM   #33
Timo
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

I sit corrected.

We could milk the less than convincing effect for what it is worth, and assume that the corridor really is much shorter than the translight artist would have us believe. Doing the same to the forced-perspective Main Engineering set would be very helpful, too; maybe it is as short as built, and the people working on the far end of the horizontal shaft come from a species of short stature.

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Old July 30 2014, 11:54 PM   #34
Trimm
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

When the Enterprise destroys the impulse crystal on the Reliant, Joquim says of the damage, "They've damaged the photon controls and the warp drive" and he insists that the Reliant must withdraw. The damage to the Reliant was apparently not sufficient to immobilise it, whereas the Enterprise was clearly stuck for a little while. We know that because Spock calls down to Kirk at the end of the sickbay scene to inform him that with auxillary power restored, they can finally get back underway on impulse power.

So whatever that crystal is, it is apparently not important enough to out and out cripple a starship upon being lost.
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Old July 31 2014, 09:13 AM   #35
Timo
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

...But as said, the Reliant has two of those.

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...twokhd0115.jpg
http://www.timpalgut.com/miranda1.jpg

Whether they are identical in function (even if not in detail), we don't know, but if Khan carries a spare, then Sulu's clever choice of targets indeed "evens out" the fight.

(Incidentally, while the two domes are both at stern centerline, they aren't stacked atop each other - they cannot be connected by a straight vertical intermix shaft or anything like that. Doesn't mean they cannot be interlinked by some other means.)

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Old July 31 2014, 09:39 AM   #36
Ithekro
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

Joaquim's response is in replay to Kahn's order to fire. Joaquim says they cannot fire, to which Kahn asks "why can't you"? To which he is told Enterprise has damaged the photon controls and the warp drive. (This would imply that damaging the warp drive will still cut out the phasers on Reliant, at least in the short term).

Enterprise's phasers hit along the upper rear hull to starboard of the impulse unit until hitting the crystal. Not a lot of hits, but apparently Sulu is skilled enough to disable Reliant's weapons ability without taking out the weapons themselves. There are also some internal explosions on the bridge, but that seems to be a feature of a lot of Federation ships over history.

Much later, in the Nebula, Chekov targets the Torpedo bays and warp nacelle with torpedoes. This again would take out Reliant's weapons, if it hadn't already killed or wounded all the ship's tiny Augment crew.
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Old July 31 2014, 11:13 AM   #37
Maurice
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

Ithekro wrote: View Post
J...Much later, in the Nebula, Chekov targets the Torpedo bays and warp nacelle with torpedoes. This again would take out Reliant's weapons, if it hadn't already killed or wounded all the ship's tiny Augment crew.
And phasers. They hit the torpedo pod with a torpedo. They blow apart the nacelle grilles with phasers, and a second torpedo blows the crippled nacelle clean off.
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Old July 31 2014, 01:15 PM   #38
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

Maurice wrote: View Post
And phasers. They hit the torpedo pod with a torpedo. They blow apart the nacelle grilles with phasers, and a second torpedo blows the crippled nacelle clean off.
I should probably put this in the movie section, but does anyone remember seeing a brief long shot right after the nacelle comes off, spinning away from the rest of the Reliant?

I saw it in the movies and I've never seen it again on TV or VHS or DVD. It was only a second, but it left a big impression on me, seeing that warp nacelle fly away from the ship like that.
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Old July 31 2014, 07:25 PM   #39
Trimm
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

Timo wrote: View Post
...But as said, the Reliant has two of those.

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...twokhd0115.jpg
http://www.timpalgut.com/miranda1.jpg

Whether they are identical in function (even if not in detail), we don't know, but if Khan carries a spare, then Sulu's clever choice of targets indeed "evens out" the fight.

(Incidentally, while the two domes are both at stern centerline, they aren't stacked atop each other - they cannot be connected by a straight vertical intermix shaft or anything like that. Doesn't mean they cannot be interlinked by some other means.)

Timo Saloniemi
The fact that those two objects are obviously visually different from each other in many respects would tend to indicate that they are more likely to be distinct in their function. The dome on the top of the Reliant's impulse drive is identical to the one on the Enterprise's impulse drive, so it is not a far stretch to assume that the dome has some connection to the function of the engines and/or powerplant. Whatever that function is, the destruction of the dome did not cause irrepairable damage to Reliant's engines, as Joquin clearly tells Khan later "Impulse power restored".
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Old July 31 2014, 07:39 PM   #40
Timo
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

Well, we see two domes. On different starships, domes close to the impulse engines are of different size and design. And we know of no pressing need to have two domes of identical design on a single ship (although the late Excelsior and the Constellation both seem to have two identical domes).

Since we have good evidence that different designs can do the same job, whatever that job is, Khan could definitely be considered to be "carrying a spare", and the loss of the dome might be crippling for any ship not carrying one.

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Old July 31 2014, 08:23 PM   #41
Trimm
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

The impulse drive on the Miranda, Constitution, and Constellation class are essentially visually identical. The Excelsior has two domes, but two identical domes that are still clearly part of the impulse drive. I see no compelling reason to assume the circular structure on the underside of the Reliant that is visually disimillar to the impulse dome and also not directly connected to the impulse drive serves the same function because it just so happens to also be a circle.

We know the Enterprise was able to restore partial main power after suffering significantly more serious damage, so I see no reason to assume that under other cicumstances that the damage to the Reliant would be crippling. Especially given that the Reliant isn't crippled by it, or even damaged comparitvely to the Enterprise.
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Old July 31 2014, 08:56 PM   #42
Timo
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

I see no compelling reason to assume the circular structure on the underside of the Reliant that is visually disimillar to the impulse dome and also not directly connected to the impulse drive serves the same function because it just so happens to also be a circle.
Granted. But that in no way trumps the statement "I see no compelling reason to assume the second dome on the ship is different from the first one functionally because it happens to be slightly different in detail". Both interpretations are equally valid and natural.

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Old July 31 2014, 09:20 PM   #43
Trimm
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

Timo wrote: View Post

Granted. But that in no way trumps the statement "I see no compelling reason to assume the second dome on the ship is different from the first one functionally because it happens to be slightly different in detail". Both interpretations are equally valid and natural.

Timo Saloniemi
Respectfully, no. One interpretation requires a significantly higher level of assumption than the other, and the more assumptions without evidence a conclusion requires, the less likely it is.

The notion that a visually disimilar object on a different part of the ship serves the exact same purpose as another structure requires a huge logical leap. The structure on the underside of the Reliant is visually different from the impulse dome in several ways. The structure on the underside of the Reliant is not connected to the impulse drive, and is not directly aligned with the dome on the impulse drive. The only commonality between the two objects is that they are both circles. What logical reason is there to assume that those two objects serve the exact same purpose? Beyond logic, what storytelling purpose is there in assuming that?

There isn't one. The film is fairly clear that the damage to the Reliant was not crippling, and was less than the damage caused by Reliant to Enterprise. Storytelling wise and Trek Tech wise, that is perfectly consistent with the fact that Enterprise was hit strategically by the Reliant's full fire, whereas the Reliant was hit by a crippled Enterprise loosing its last bolt, as it were. There is no cause to give the Reliant a mythical "spare tire" to explain any of that.
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Old August 1 2014, 05:32 AM   #44
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

Trimm wrote: View Post
Respectfully, no. One interpretation requires a significantly higher level of assumption than the other, and the more assumptions without evidence a conclusion requires, the less likely it is.
All right, how much is Occam paying you?
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Old August 1 2014, 09:19 AM   #45
Timo
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

The notion that a visually disimilar object on a different part of the ship serves the exact same purpose as another structure requires a huge logical leap.
No more gigantic than assuming that the dome needs to be of a very specific shape and size and form in order to qualify. After all, that assumption is already defeated by the fact that different shapes do work - on different ships.

What logical reason is there to assume that those two objects serve the exact same purpose?
The obvious one - to postulate a different purpose for each requires extra effort that is uncalled for until otherwise proven.

Beyond logic, what storytelling purpose is there in assuming that?
Storytelling purpose in greeblies? Beyond the Main Bridge of Pike's ship in the original pilot, or the cheek extension of the E-B, none of the elements on Star Trek ships have served storytelling purposes from the get-go, beyond looking cool. But each can be assigned a function at a later date if need be; this is what happens with the Reliant upper dome, too, as it is not a feature designed with the actual movie scene in mind.

But again, the obvious can be pointed out - Khan is wounded but not defeated, a fact easily demonstrated to the audience by visually depriving Khan of one of something but not all of it. This is far better than forcing the audience to speculate on phaser beam strength or whatnot.

This is not something the makers of the movie would have paid the slightest attention to, however. Movies don't require logic or purpose in order to work. Of course, this doesn't stop us from assigning some, or various parties involved in the moviemaking from inserting occasional logic just for fun.

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