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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Future of Trek

Future of Trek Discussion of future Trek projects.

View Poll Results: Do fans want the prime timeline back?
I'm a fan and I want the Prime timeline back. 201 56.46%
I'm a fan and I don't want the Prime timeline back. 58 16.29%
I'm a fan and wouldn't mind if it came back. 39 10.96%
I don't care, just give me Trek! 52 14.61%
I don't know. 6 1.69%
Voters: 356. You may not vote on this poll

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Old July 30 2014, 07:45 AM   #1276
Gov Karnstein
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
So, I'm curious: What do people mean when they say they want something more "cerebral"? Something more like "The Cage"? Or TMP? Or TNG? Or DS9?
Spock's Brain

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Are we talking more hard science? More politics? More "utopian" inspiration or more moral ambiguity? Deeper, more complicated characterization or chewier time-travel paradoxes? Morality plays? Thinly-disguised allegories about current events?
Comedy, the general audience seemed to like TVH the most of all the films, and SB could be just as good or better. Keep the fun, don't go down the rabbit hole of 'Cerebral'. This show had the occasional thoughtful episode, so did the Bionic Man and Happy Days, but it was mostly a fun space opera.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
I'm not being facetious here, but I suspect we're talking past each other to some degree, and that if you asked ten different fans what "cerebral" meant to them, you would get at least eight different answers . . ..
Corruption from absolute power

Kirk whinnies and prances like a horse

Fans aghast

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Old July 30 2014, 11:18 AM   #1277
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
So, I'm curious: What do people mean when they say they want something more "cerebral"? Something more like "The Cage"? Or TMP? Or TNG? Or DS9?

Are we talking more hard science? More politics? More "utopian" inspiration or more moral ambiguity? Deeper, more complicated characterization or chewier time-travel paradoxes? Morality plays? Thinly-disguised allegories about current events?

I'm not being facetious here, but I suspect we're talking past each other to some degree, and that if you asked ten different fans what "cerebral" meant to them, you would get at least eight different answers . . ..
It occurs to me that one of the oft-repeated legends about "The Cage" is that it was rejected for being "too cerebral". From Wiki's article on "The Cage":

NBC reportedly called the pilot "too cerebral," "too intellectual," and "too slow" with "not enough action."[2]
[...]
2. ^ Shatner, William (2008). Up Till Now: The Autobiography. New York: Thomas Dunne Books. p. 119. ISBN 0-312-37265-5.
Maybe that's how this word is getting injected into the conversation about Star Trek.
I read somewhere that it actually had to do with "The Cage" being too expensive and not wanting to pay the amount needed to make it per episode.
Anymore, I consider the "too cerebral" to be guru-era Rodenberry trying to defend why his initial concept wasn't heralded as pure genius.

As there isn't a huge amount of difference in the level of action - I think one could argue there was even more in "The Cage" - the most notable difference was probably in the timing of WNMHGB having the fight be the episode's climax. And I'd say the "cerebral" science-fiction food-for-thought in both was about equal as well...
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Old July 30 2014, 02:33 PM   #1278
wulfio
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Avatar probably made a lot of people think.
Now I loved avatar. It was total eye candy and an amazing 3D experience. But the only thing it could possibly make you think of is how many movies this ripped off.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
So, I'm curious: What do people mean when they say they want something more "cerebral"?
Full Definition of CEREBRAL

1
a : of or relating to the brain or the intellect
b : of, relating to, affecting, or being the cerebrum

2
a : appealing to intellectual appreciation <cerebral drama>
b : primarily intellectual in nature <a cerebral society>
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Old July 30 2014, 02:37 PM   #1279
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

wulfio wrote: View Post

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
So, I'm curious: What do people mean when they say they want something more "cerebral"?
Full Definition of CEREBRAL

1
a : of or relating to the brain or the intellect
b : of, relating to, affecting, or being the cerebrum

2
a : appealing to intellectual appreciation <cerebral drama>
b : primarily intellectual in nature <a cerebral society>
Being a novelist and editor, I'm sure Greg Cox is well aware of the definition of cerebral. What he is trying to narrow down is what exactly is it that fans are wanting. And he is correct, if you asked ten fans, you would get eight different answers.
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Old July 30 2014, 02:42 PM   #1280
Gov Karnstein
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

BillJ wrote: View Post
wulfio wrote: View Post

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
So, I'm curious: What do people mean when they say they want something more "cerebral"?
Full Definition of CEREBRAL

1
a : of or relating to the brain or the intellect
b : of, relating to, affecting, or being the cerebrum

2
a : appealing to intellectual appreciation <cerebral drama>
b : primarily intellectual in nature <a cerebral society>
Being a novelist and editor, I'm sure Greg Cox is well aware of the definition of cerebral. What he is trying to narrow down is what exactly is it that fans are wanting. And he is correct, if you asked ten fans, you would get eight different answers.
At least that many.
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Old July 30 2014, 04:14 PM   #1281
bbjeg
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
wulfio wrote: View Post



Full Definition of CEREBRAL

1
a : of or relating to the brain or the intellect
b : of, relating to, affecting, or being the cerebrum

2
a : appealing to intellectual appreciation <cerebral drama>
b : primarily intellectual in nature <a cerebral society>
Being a novelist and editor, I'm sure Greg Cox is well aware of the definition of cerebral. What he is trying to narrow down is what exactly is it that fans are wanting. And he is correct, if you asked ten fans, you would get eight different answers.
At least that many.
You'd probably get more answers than the number of asked fans.
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Old July 30 2014, 05:29 PM   #1282
Greg Cox
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

BillJ wrote: View Post
wulfio wrote: View Post

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
So, I'm curious: What do people mean when they say they want something more "cerebral"?
Full Definition of CEREBRAL

1
a : of or relating to the brain or the intellect
b : of, relating to, affecting, or being the cerebrum

2
a : appealing to intellectual appreciation <cerebral drama>
b : primarily intellectual in nature <a cerebral society>
Being a novelist and editor, I'm sure Greg Cox is well aware of the definition of cerebral. What he is trying to narrow down is what exactly is it that fans are wanting. And he is correct, if you asked ten fans, you would get eight different answers.
Exactly. We all know the dictionary definition of "cerebral," but what does that mean in the context of a Star Trek movie? I mean, it's easy to say that "oh, we want something more intellectual," but how does that translate into storytelling terms?

Do you want more talk of quasars and pulsars and warp theory? Or do want serious discussions about important social issues? Do you want a story that appeals more to the head than to the heart? Do you want less emotion and melodrama? Do you want more about the sociology and politics of alien races? Do want more world-building and less romance and sex appeal? Do you insist on an uplifting message? Where exactly do fun and excitement and humor fit into this equation?

Or, to couch this in more Trekkish terms, do you want something more like "City on the Edge of Forever?" Or "In the Pale Moonlight?" Or "The Inner Light"? Or "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield"?

What kinds of Trek stories do we want to emulate here? Which are considered "cerebral"?
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Old July 30 2014, 05:46 PM   #1283
BillJ
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post

Or, to couch this in more Trekkish terms, do you want something more like "City on the Edge of Forever?" Or "In the Pale Moonlight?" Or "The Inner Light"? Or "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield"?

What kinds of Trek stories do we want to emulate here? Which are considered "cerebral"?
I want a big screen version of "The Omega Glory". For whatever it's worth.
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Old July 30 2014, 05:53 PM   #1284
Greg Cox
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post

Or, to couch this in more Trekkish terms, do you want something more like "City on the Edge of Forever?" Or "In the Pale Moonlight?" Or "The Inner Light"? Or "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield"?

What kinds of Trek stories do we want to emulate here? Which are considered "cerebral"?
I want a big screen version of "The Omega Glory". For whatever it's worth.
I'm holding out for "Catspaw 2: Wrath of the Giant Black Cat."

To be released on Halloween, of course.
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Old July 30 2014, 06:05 PM   #1285
VST
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

I just want the next movie (and series) to entertain & embrace the real joy of Star Trek.

When you boil down the premise, it's not hard science, it's not deeply 'cerebral' discourse, it's not pure escapism, or action theatrics… it's all of those things! It always was, rolled up into one giant, colourful ball. Each show & each movie accentuated different elements of those components but at the end of the day, the finest Trek entertains & tells a rollicking yarn, and if it makes you care about the characters & leaves you thinking, well… bonus! There are plenty of duff 'character' or 'issue' eps that only got half the mixture right, and forgot to have fun.

Each person's idea of what makes Trek entertaining is different, of course, but if what comes next has that sense of wonder, sense of adventure, sense of humour… it stands a good chance of pleasing most of the people at least some of the time, maybe more than certainly STID did among fandom.
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Old July 30 2014, 06:05 PM   #1286
RandyS
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post

Or, to couch this in more Trekkish terms, do you want something more like "City on the Edge of Forever?" Or "In the Pale Moonlight?" Or "The Inner Light"? Or "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield"?

What kinds of Trek stories do we want to emulate here? Which are considered "cerebral"?
I want a big screen version of "The Omega Glory". For whatever it's worth.
I'm holding out for "Catspaw 2: Wrath of the Giant Black Cat."

To be released on Halloween, of course.
I'd like "Spock's Brain II: Attack of the Cerebral Clones".
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Old July 30 2014, 06:21 PM   #1287
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

BillJ wrote: View Post
I want a big screen version of "The Omega Glory". For whatever it's worth.
After the preamble, Kirk could go on to read the bill of rights.

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Old July 30 2014, 06:53 PM   #1288
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

{{{BRAINGASM}}}

Thank you, that was great. Money is by the door. Please be gone by the time I finish my shower.



Decades of being a Trekker has taught me to be cautious when trying to expect/dictate what Trek should do, where it should go, next. Even if it seems the logical thing to do.

Speculation is fine but when you start betting the farm on the future you're likely to end up bitter and or disappointed.
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Old July 30 2014, 07:35 PM   #1289
Greg Cox
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

VST wrote: View Post
I just want the next movie (and series) to entertain & embrace the real joy of Star Trek.

When you boil down the premise, it's not hard science, it's not deeply 'cerebral' discourse, it's not pure escapism, or action theatrics… it's all of those things! It always was, rolled up into one giant, colourful ball. Each show & each movie accentuated different elements of those components but at the end of the day, the finest Trek entertains & tells a rollicking yarn, and if it makes you care about the characters & leaves you thinking, well… bonus! There are plenty of duff 'character' or 'issue' eps that only got half the mixture right, and forgot to have fun.
.
Nicely put! That's pretty much my attitude, too.
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Old July 30 2014, 10:13 PM   #1290
wulfio
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
wulfio wrote: View Post



Full Definition of CEREBRAL

1
a : of or relating to the brain or the intellect
b : of, relating to, affecting, or being the cerebrum

2
a : appealing to intellectual appreciation <cerebral drama>
b : primarily intellectual in nature <a cerebral society>
Being a novelist and editor, I'm sure Greg Cox is well aware of the definition of cerebral. What he is trying to narrow down is what exactly is it that fans are wanting. And he is correct, if you asked ten fans, you would get eight different answers.
Exactly. We all know the dictionary definition of "cerebral," but what does that mean in the context of a Star Trek movie? I mean, it's easy to say that "oh, we want something more intellectual," but how does that translate into storytelling terms?

Do you want more talk of quasars and pulsars and warp theory? Or do want serious discussions about important social issues? Do you want a story that appeals more to the head than to the heart? Do you want less emotion and melodrama? Do you want more about the sociology and politics of alien races? Do want more world-building and less romance and sex appeal? Do you insist on an uplifting message? Where exactly do fun and excitement and humor fit into this equation?

Or, to couch this in more Trekkish terms, do you want something more like "City on the Edge of Forever?" Or "In the Pale Moonlight?" Or "The Inner Light"? Or "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield"?

What kinds of Trek stories do we want to emulate here? Which are considered "cerebral"?
The whole discussion was predicated on the idea that today's Trek is as it is because it could be represented in no other fashion. Abrams trek was far from intelligent.

The contention was that you can indeed make an intelligent slow paced movie, and if done properly, today's audience would accept it. We are talking about conceptual ideas, not specifics. Again, people not following the discussion are focusing on the wrong things. This has absolutely nothing to do with a specific story, or wanting a specific story. This discussion is about what message is being said on what medium, whether or not there is a choice, and if the medium dictates the message.

Since you know the definition, I have no idea why you ask the question. There's more than 1 way to make an intelligent piece of literature, or film. I know the internet deals in absolutes, and black and white, but real life isn't like that. The only thing that is absolute, is to avoid being contrived and derivative.
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