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Old July 26 2014, 09:34 PM   #331
C.E. Evans
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
If Vulcan is a member of the Federation, then it's a Federation ship. If Vulcan isn't a member of the Federation, then it's not.

Specifying a ship as being Vulcan is merely a way of distinguishing it from a Starfleet vessel or determining its point of origin. Doesn't mean that it isn't a Federation ship.
Modern day, Malaysia is a Member of the British Commonwealth, that doesn't mean that every ship and naval vessel flagged out of Malaysia is a British Commonwealth ship.
I guess they're not even Earth vessels by that token.
Similarly, Vulcan is a UFP Member, that doesn't mean that every (or any) Vulcan civilian ship, merchantman and defense ship is a "Federation ship."
I think if they run across Klingon or Romulan ships, they'll definitely be regarded as Federation ships regardless if they come from Vulcan or any other Federation world.
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Old July 27 2014, 03:50 AM   #332
Merry Christmas
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I think if they run across Klingon or Romulan ships, they'll definitely be regarded as Federation ships regardless if they come from Vulcan or any other Federation world.
It would be like if the Klingons (or the Romulans) ran across the lower portion of the Apollo Eleven lunar lander on our moon and regarded it as a "Federation ship."

In other words, they'd be wrong.

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Old July 27 2014, 05:14 AM   #333
Ithekro
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

In Enterprise there was still talk about the Royal Navy. Ships in that Navy would not properly be called Earth ships, not registered as Earth ships. They would be ships of the Royal Navy, part of the Commonwealth, and British ships. A Klingon might call it an Earth ship, but they would be wrong on all technical levels aside from planet of origin.

And in all contexts that have been discussed about the people refereeing to the number of "Federation Starships named Enterprise", have all been Federation citizens, who would be able to know the difference, as oppose to a Klingon or Cardassian, who could care less about such technicalities.

The T'Pau is also called a Vulcan ship, rather than a Federation ship. It is more specific. They could have just left it as the T'Pau, but they went the extra kilometer or two to specifically mention that it is from Vulcan and was registered to the Vulcan National Merchant Fleet. That would be a sovereignty issue.
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Old July 27 2014, 06:39 AM   #334
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

There is at least one Enterprise after the NX-01 and before the 1701 in the comics set in the alternate timeline. I think that if the JJ team ever got around to telling or mentioning more events between 2161 and 2258, they will stick to that and say other Federation Starship Enterprises existed during those years. At least one. I am guessing that they wanted to maintain that a Robert April did still command an Enterprise even if was not the 1701 Enterprise.
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Old July 27 2014, 03:04 PM   #335
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Saturn0660 wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
It's not an opinion, just seeing it for what it truly is. You can still have ships of Earth, Vulcan, and Andorian registry, but they're all going to be regarded as Federation ships no matter what. From someone outside of the Federation, the difference between a Federation ship and a ship from a Federation member world is zero.
I'm not so sure. In TNG's Unification they keep calling it a Vulcan ship.. Not a Federation ship from Vulcan.. A VULCAN ship. In my mind NOT Federation.
If Vulcan is a member of the Federation, then it's a Federation ship. If Vulcan isn't a member of the Federation, then it's not.

Specifying a ship as being Vulcan is merely a way of distinguishing it from a Starfleet vessel or determining its point of origin. Doesn't mean that it isn't a Federation ship.
Dukhat wrote: View Post
Saturn0660 wrote: View Post
I'm not so sure. In TNG's Unification they keep calling it a Vulcan ship.. Not a Federation ship from Vulcan.. A VULCAN ship. In my mind NOT Federation.
It had a Federation registry.
Exactly. A Federation ship doesn't have to be a Starfleet one. It really isn't that hard a concept. Anything else is just splitting hairs.
When interviewed about his vulcan shuttle in TMP, Probert specified it was "on detached service to Vulcan." Detached from Starfleet, I would assume.
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Old July 27 2014, 07:15 PM   #336
C.E. Evans
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I think if they run across Klingon or Romulan ships, they'll definitely be regarded as Federation ships regardless if they come from Vulcan or any other Federation world.
It would be like if the Klingons (or the Romulans) ran across the lower portion of the Apollo Eleven lunar lander on our moon and regarded it as a "Federation ship."

In other words, they'd be wrong.
Why would they be even interested in the remains of the Apollo-11 lunar lander in the first place?
AirCommodore wrote:
There is at least one Enterprise after the NX-01 and before the 1701 in the comics set in the alternate timeline. I think that if the JJ team ever got around to telling or mentioning more events between 2161 and 2258, they will stick to that and say other Federation Starship Enterprises existed during those years. At least one. I am guessing that they wanted to maintain that a Robert April did still command an Enterprise even if was not the 1701 Enterprise.
If you actually look closely at the inner nacelle of April's Enterprise, it's hull registry reads NCC-1701 too.
http://i.imgur.com/xSjePu8.jpg
trevanian wrote:
When interviewed about his vulcan shuttle in TMP, Probert specified it was "on detached service to Vulcan." Detached from Starfleet, I would assume.
I remember it being identical to the new proposed shuttles that the Enterprise was carrying except in livery.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img20/6767/ntrq.jpg
Warp sled attachments might be standard for long-range trips.
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Old July 27 2014, 09:23 PM   #337
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I think if they run across Klingon or Romulan ships, they'll definitely be regarded as Federation ships regardless if they come from Vulcan or any other Federation world.
It would be like if the Klingons (or the Romulans) ran across the lower portion of the Apollo Eleven lunar lander on our moon and regarded it as a "Federation ship."

In other words, they'd be wrong.

You mean like how Klaa thought the Pioneer probe was a Federation ship before he blew it up? Oh, wait, he didn't.
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Old July 27 2014, 09:40 PM   #338
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

trevanian wrote:
When interviewed about his vulcan shuttle in TMP, Probert specified it was "on detached service to Vulcan." Detached from Starfleet, I would assume.



The warp sled shuttle would appear to be a Vulcan vessel and not Starfleet by it's markings. The first two letters in it's registry are "VS," Vulcan Ship perhaps?

I've always liked that it's marked (apparently) in Vulcan characters, and not just in English.

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I remember it being identical to the new proposed shuttles that the Enterprise was carrying except in livery.
Might be as simple as there are companies or a corporation on one or more of the Member worlds that manufactures shuttles, for the Federation, Starfleet, the various Member governments, businesses and individuals who want shuttles. Some would be armed, others not, custom paint jobs as required.





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Old July 28 2014, 10:21 PM   #339
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

A good point that ships of the same type or class might not even be in the same organization, or even country.

In our history, both British and American ships built during the Second World War were sold to allied (and other) nations to use in there navies. Some still exist in the service of South American nations, India, and South East Asia.

Also there are ships built by one nation to be sold to another nation from the start. The United States built or released the plans on how to build some frigate and destroyers classes to other nations such as Australia, Turkey, and Japan. And over a century ago, places like France, German, and Britain were building ships for other countries that didn't quite have enough shipbuilding infrastructure to build as many ships as they had money for. Russia had a few French and American designs. Japan has British designs. China and Turkey had German ships. Chile, Brazil, and Argentian had a little naval arms race going in the 1880s to 1910s with French, British, and later American ship designs built for them.

Japan's first ironclad was a French built ship, originally built for the Confederate States of America. CSS Stonewall.
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Old July 29 2014, 06:28 PM   #340
Merry Christmas
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Modern day, Malaysia is a Member of the British Commonwealth, that doesn't mean that every ship and naval vessel flagged out of Malaysia is a British Commonwealth ship.
I guess they're not even Earth vessels by that token.
The (attempted) point being just because a interstellar civilization holds a membership in the Federation doesn't mean that every vessel that can move at warp speed becomes the property of the Federation.

Whatever fleet of armed starships, merchantmen, and privately owned starships Arabella Five had before membership, they had during membership.

Your home owners association doesn't get you car.





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Last edited by Merry Christmas; July 30 2014 at 12:10 PM.
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Old July 29 2014, 06:56 PM   #341
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Your home owners association doesn't get you car.

Wait … it doesn't? Are you saying Gene lied to me?!
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Old July 29 2014, 07:00 PM   #342
C.E. Evans
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Modern day, Malaysia is a Member of the British Commonwealth, that doesn't mean that every ship and naval vessel flagged out of Malaysia is a British Commonwealth ship
.
I guess they're not even Earth vessels by that token.
The (attempted) point being just because a interstellar civilization holds a membership in the Federation doesn't mean that every vessel that can move at warp speed becomes the property of the Federation.

Whatever fleet of armed starships, merchantmen, and privately owned starships Arabella Five had before membership, they had during membership.

Your home owners association doesn't get you car.
At this point, it's silly quibbling over semantics.
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Old July 29 2014, 08:45 PM   #343
Ithekro
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

It may be semantics, but it might also be truth.

We have no evidence that all ships operating within the Federation are Federation ships.

We do have evidence that member worlds have ships that are registered to their own homeworlds even into the 24th century.

Therefore it is possible that were are other ships within the Federation that can bare famous ship names, during the 22nd through 24th centuries, that are not necessarily properly classified as Federation ships.

Does this mean there was another Enterprise between 2161 and 2245? Who knows. Is it possible there was another ship named Enterprise that is not properly called a Federation ship in that time frame? Yes. In fact it is possible for there to be a ship named Enterprise while the various NCC-1701 starships are in service because whatever it is would not be in Starfleet. The Space Shuttle Enterprise, Aircraft Carrier USS Enterprise, and the Space Plane VSS Enterprise all existed at the same time.
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Old July 29 2014, 10:20 PM   #344
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Ithekro wrote: View Post
It may be semantics, but it might also be truth.
The simplest truth is that not all Federation ships are Starfleet ones. Civilian ships from the various members worlds are also Federation ships.
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Old July 29 2014, 10:31 PM   #345
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Are all ship registered in the European Union, European ships? Properly speaking? No.

They are registered in their country of origin and are named as such, be they French, German, British, Italian, Dutch, or whatever. (Though actually, most ships are registered in placing in Africa or Central America for tax reasons these days...they are called by their operating company or national origin typically).
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