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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old July 28 2014, 08:57 PM   #76
wulfio
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Re: So, is each movie someone's top favorite?

couldn't have said it better myself cyke.

You'd have to know me to understand why I used the word magical. Perhaps it was poor choice of wording on an internet forum. It was a contemptuous adjective. I just mean the unbeatable overpowered ship/enemy plot device where the good guys have to luck themselves in to winning the war/battle. It irks me to no end. It's not limited to star trek. It's found in many different sci-fi's, and I enjoy them no more than I do nemesis or abrams trek. It's the kind of scenarios you think up when you're playing with your ninja turtles/gi joes/transformers when you're 6 you know?

The borg is another example, and was over the borg after best of both worlds 2 parter. FC however does not fit the mold because the cube was destroyed in the opening act, and the story didn't center around it.

Last edited by wulfio; July 28 2014 at 09:16 PM.
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Old July 28 2014, 09:10 PM   #77
ElimGarak.93-99
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Re: So, is each movie someone's top favorite?

Favorite TOS movies:
- The Voyage Home
- The Undiscovered Country

Favorite TNG movie:
- Insurrection
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Old July 29 2014, 11:52 AM   #78
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Re: So, is each movie someone's top favorite?

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Yes TFF is at least 2 people's favourite.

How about GEN. Is that anyone's favourite?
It's pretty close, actually. It certainly is one of my three favorite movies.
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Old July 29 2014, 12:02 PM   #79
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Re: So, is each movie someone's top favorite?

Into Darkness is my favourite.

Also while I enjoy TWOK I can't understand why it's rated so highly. Khan was not in my opinion a challenge tactically to Kirk.

I much more enjoy the depth of Abramverse Khan.
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Old July 29 2014, 08:24 PM   #80
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Re: So, is each movie someone's top favorite?

Disco wrote: View Post

Also while I enjoy TWOK I can't understand why it's rated so highly. Khan was not in my opinion a challenge tactically to Kirk.
Well, everyone is entitled to TWOK and that's fine and dandy, but Khan nearly disabled/destroyed the Enterprise in its first encounter and trapped Kirk and the Away Team on a seemingly dead planet. Kirk's experience saved them both times, so I'd say Khan's a challenge.
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Old July 29 2014, 08:44 PM   #81
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Re: So, is each movie someone's top favorite?

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
Well, everyone is entitled to TWOK and that's fine and dandy, but Khan nearly disabled/destroyed the Enterprise in its first encounter and trapped Kirk and the Away Team on a seemingly dead planet. Kirk's experience saved them both times, so I'd say Khan's a challenge.
Um. The first time the Enterprise was saved because Spock pulled a deus ex machina out of his ass. The second time was Khan's own fault.

Kirk had nothing to do with it.
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Old July 29 2014, 08:50 PM   #82
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Re: So, is each movie someone's top favorite?

Although Khan's first attack on Kirk was indeed a surprise....knowing where to hit the Enterprise and seriously impair her, that was his one whammy....Kirk made an unspoken promise to never get caught by surprise again. He was always one step ahead of Khan, even when the audience didn't know it.

Ok...Khan had two whammy's. Kirk and party did lead Khan to the Genesis Device, and Khan beamed it up....ok, two surprises he pulled on Kirk.

Ok....three, if you count the fact that Khan was crazy enough to actually use the Genesis Device to try and destroy Kirk in a final act of vengeance. Although the Enterprise escaped, it was due to Spock's sacrifice and death.

So, three surprises by Khan....surprises that were largely spawned from desperation in seeking revenge. Khan was a challenge, but as Spock pointed out "intelligent, but not experienced".

In the first encounter, Kirk was the one who thought up using Reliant's command codes to level the playing field a bit.

Spock: At least we know he doesn't have Genesis.
Kirk: (to Spock) Keep nodding as though I'm still giving orders. (To Saavik) Lieutenant, bring up the charts of Reliant's command console.
Saavik: Reliant's command--?
Kirk: (desperate whisper) Hurry!
Spock: The prefix code?
Kirk: It's all we've got.

------
The second time, yes, Spock spoke in code, so to speak, to Kirk on Regula I station.

Spock: Admiral, if we go "by the book", like Lieutenant Saavik, hours would seem like days.
Kirk: I read you, Captain, let's have it.
Spock: The situation is grave, Admiral. We won't have main power for six days. Auxiliary power has temporarily failed. Restoration may be possible in two days, by the book, Admiral.
Kirk: Meaning you can't even beam us back?
Spock: Not at present.
Kirk: (thinks for second) Captain Spock, if you don't hear from us within one hour, your orders are to restore what power you can, take the Enterprise to the nearest starbase, and alert Starfleet Command as soon as you're out of jamming range.
Uhura: Sir, we won't leave you behind!
Kirk: Uhura, if you don't hear from us, there won't be anyone left behind. Kirk, out.
(During this exchange, we see Khan has been monitoring these communications)
Khan was still in pursuit of the Enterprise at this point, with only maneuvering jets to continue the chase, until Joachim reports "Impulse power restored!" Since Kirk and Co were aboard the station, and not inside the moon itself, they banked on the fact that Khan had to be listening in.)

(Then, two hours later)
Kirk: Kirk to Spock, it's two hours. Are you ready?
Spock: Right on schedule, Admiral. Just give us your coordinates, and we'll beam you aboard.
Kirk: All right! (mildly grinning at Saavik) I don't like to lose.

(Now, what seems to be unspoken here is that Kirk and Spock had to have switched to an encoded channel for that exchange.)

(As they're beaming up: )
Saavik: (voice modulated by transporter effect) We were immobilized. Captain Spock said it would be two days.
Kirk: Come, come, Lieutenant, you of all people who go by the book.
(salutations between Spock and Marcus)
Saavik: By the book?
Kirk: By-the-book! Regulation 45-A, when communications are being monitored during battle--
Saavik: --no uncoded messages on an open channel.
(Kirk nods to Saavik.)
Saavik: (to Spock) You lied.
Spock: I exaggerated.
Kirk: Hours instead of days....now we have minutes instead of hours!

So, while Spock gave a coded hint to Kirk to speak in terms of converted time, Kirk and Spock both gambled on the notion that Khan would go hunting for them back at Regula I. Their gambit paid off. The Enterprise managed to limp to the other side of the moon, well out of Khan's sight as he would approach Regula I. They could still beam Kirk and Co. out, but they could not stay hidden from Khan for long.



----

The third encounter, inside Mutara Nebula. Spock drops the big hint to Kirk:
Spock: Sporadic energy readings, portside aft. Could be an impulse turn.
Kirk: He won't break off now. He's followed me this far, he'll be back. But - from- where?
Spock: He's intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates-- two-dimensional thinking.
Kirk: (grins in recognition) Z-minus 10,000 meters, stand by photon torpedoes.


------

In the last two cases, Spock simply offered hints to Kirk, who was quick on the uptake in both cases.
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Old July 29 2014, 11:00 PM   #83
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Re: So, is each movie someone's top favorite?

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Cyke101 wrote: View Post
Well, everyone is entitled to TWOK and that's fine and dandy, but Khan nearly disabled/destroyed the Enterprise in its first encounter and trapped Kirk and the Away Team on a seemingly dead planet. Kirk's experience saved them both times, so I'd say Khan's a challenge.
Um. The first time the Enterprise was saved because Spock pulled a deus ex machina out of his ass. The second time was Khan's own fault.

Kirk had nothing to do with it.
Okay, maybe saved was too heavy a word, but at least Kirk's experience helped, allowing him to play along with Spock both times (the second time especially when Kirk explained to Saavik the plan to escape the Genesis Cave all along).
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Old July 30 2014, 02:05 AM   #84
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Re: So, is each movie someone's top favorite?

martok2112 wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Nemesis #1 for TNG?

That takes cojones.
No, it simply takes independent thought and opinion. An advantage I have to not being a fan of anything. I do not adhere to fan-dogma when it comes to "which is the best/worst".

I have listed my reasons in other threads as to why Nemesis is my favorite TNG film, despite the fact that I know it is a highly flawed film.
I suppose if you found stuff you liked in it. I didn't.

wulfio wrote: View Post
my main gripe with Nemesis isn't the typical argument. It's the utilization of this magical unstoppable enemy. It's the same thing that bugs me about Abrams Trek.

I feel using plot devices like this signifies a lack of creative story telling, and the inability to create drama with a well thought out climax.

They stepped outside the established lore of the star trek universe, to create a cheap summer blockbuster type villain. Now if you're going to create a new unknown threat, fine. But why make it this subculture of Romulans that we've apparently never heard of about, from what, 24 previous seasons of Star Trek belonging to one of the staples of the Alpha Quadrant?

These 2 points really made me dislike the movie more so than the whole Data and B4 thing.

I also find it a bit presumptuous to make a blanket statement about people who dislike this movie. Your retort of "everyone that likes it are sheep" is about as valid as the comment "that movie sucks". If you're going to claim to be a deep thinker, at least put together a well thought out argument.
Going for the unstoppable enemy is a cheap, easy way to create tension. Since, we as the audience, are expected to go "holy shit! how are they going to get out of this one?"

Trek played this one way too often. I hated it the most in STIV, where some cigar shaped turd shows up and.....completely fuckin' disables the primary hub of the Federation, and starts causing tremendous havoc on the planet itself.

And all this time it wasn't even trying to hurt anyone, it just wanted to talk to some whales

And if it weren't for Kirk getting it a pair of whales so it would shut the fuck up, the Earth sector of the Federation would have been toast, completely helpless to do a damn thing.

I also hated it in Into Darkness. Why is it that the Enterprise, supposedly the flagship of the Federation, is the weakest ship? The Vengeance just showed up and completely shredded it like it was kibbles and bits. Kirk and crew are about to start crying their eyes out.

I'll give Nemesis some points for actually having the Enterprise hanging around and taking some lumps from the uberinvincible fanboy ship without it imploding into some type of confetti explosion.


CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
wulfio wrote: View Post
my main gripe with Nemesis isn't the typical argument. It's the utilization of this magical unstoppable enemy. It's the same thing that bugs me about Abrams Trek.
Name one Star Trek film that didn't rely on some form of wizardry, technical alchemy, or dubious celestial power of some sort.

V'ger, Genesis, The Whale Probe, Center of a Milky Way Tootsie Pop God, Super Fancy Cloaking Device, The Nexus, Borg Timewarp, Fountain of Youth particles? It's all magic.

As far as the baddies themselves I would classify V'ger, Khan armed with Genesis, The Probe, "God" and The Borg all as pretty unstoppable.

They stepped outside the established lore of the star trek universe, to create a cheap summer blockbuster type villain. Now if you're going to create a new unknown threat, fine. But why make it this subculture of Romulans that we've apparently never heard of about, from what, 24 previous seasons of Star Trek belonging to one of the staples of the Alpha Quadrant?
There are plenty of human subcultures that were never referenced in the 24 previous seasons of Star Trek either. That doesn't mean they don't exist.
Ugh! Enterprise is the worst culprit for this!! Suliban, Xindi, heavily used species that we will never ever hear from again!

Also while I wanted to to know more about Romulus and Remus, a cross between the orcs from LOTR and a bad Ed Wood movie is NOT what I was expecting the Remans to me. Instead of being complex characters (possibly of Romulan descent) they took the "oh look space vampires" route.

BillJ wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg wrote: View Post

They stepped outside the established lore of the star trek universe, to create a cheap summer blockbuster type villain. Now if you're going to create a new unknown threat, fine. But why make it this subculture of Romulans that we've apparently never heard of about, from what, 24 previous seasons of Star Trek belonging to one of the staples of the Alpha Quadrant?
There are plenty of human subcultures that were never referenced in the 24 previous seasons of Star Trek either. That doesn't mean they don't exist.
+1

If you can't add anything to already created aliens, then they all come off as pretty one-note. A huge problem in the Star Trek universe. I liked the Remans. Even if I didn't, I'd still give the writers points for trying to expand on a known alien culture.
I hated the Remans, for the reasons stated above.

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
wulfio wrote: View Post
my main gripe with Nemesis isn't the typical argument. It's the utilization of this magical unstoppable enemy. It's the same thing that bugs me about Abrams Trek.
Name one Star Trek film that didn't rely on some form of wizardry, technical alchemy, or dubious celestial power of some sort.

V'ger, Genesis, The Whale Probe, Center of a Milky Way Tootsie Pop God, Super Fancy Cloaking Device, The Nexus, Borg Timewarp, Fountain of Youth particles? It's all magic.
I kinda see what Wulfio's getting at, maybe because it happens in so many other movies aside from JJTrek in this day and age, I think. To me, the Scimitar, the Narada, and the Vengeance all share the similarity of being not just unstoppable, but downright vicious and relentless to the point of removing tension because it just guarantees that the heroes will seek a different route. And in each case, each of them held the key to their own destruction (thalaron radiation, red matter, Khan himself).

It's quite different than V'Ger or the Whale Probe, who were destructive but operating on a different plane altogether and were perhaps unaware of the damage, so a straight up confrontation was never an option to begin with. And "God" was just outright destroyed with good ol' fashioned firepower, same as Chang. The Son'a were largely held at bay at the end.

Ironically, one of the most directly unstoppable ships we've seen -- a Borg Cube -- was stopped fairly early in FC. I suspect that had it been just the Cube vs. the Enterprise, that it would feel like the Scimitar or Vengeance again; but thankfully, the rest of Starfleet was there to soften it up for the killing blow.
wulfio wrote: View Post
couldn't have said it better myself cyke.

You'd have to know me to understand why I used the word magical. Perhaps it was poor choice of wording on an internet forum. It was a contemptuous adjective. I just mean the unbeatable overpowered ship/enemy plot device where the good guys have to luck themselves in to winning the war/battle. It irks me to no end. It's not limited to star trek. It's found in many different sci-fi's, and I enjoy them no more than I do nemesis or abrams trek. It's the kind of scenarios you think up when you're playing with your ninja turtles/gi joes/transformers when you're 6 you know?

The borg is another example, and was over the borg after best of both worlds 2 parter. FC however does not fit the mold because the cube was destroyed in the opening act, and the story didn't center around it.
Disco wrote: View Post
Into Darkness is my favourite.

Also while I enjoy TWOK I can't understand why it's rated so highly. Khan was not in my opinion a challenge tactically to Kirk.

I much more enjoy the depth of Abramverse Khan.
TWOK Khan was this Machiavellian character that was almost Shakespearean in nature, and worked well as a foil to Kirk. I think that's one of the reasons TWOK worked so well.

Abramtrek's Khan is just derivative bad guy #37 who just happens to be misunderstood.

I didn't hate him, but only because his character fit the rest of the movie (a bunch of throwaway plot meant only to get to the action scenes, and loosely imitate TWOK)

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
Disco wrote: View Post

Also while I enjoy TWOK I can't understand why it's rated so highly. Khan was not in my opinion a challenge tactically to Kirk.
Well, everyone is entitled to TWOK and that's fine and dandy, but Khan nearly disabled/destroyed the Enterprise in its first encounter and trapped Kirk and the Away Team on a seemingly dead planet. Kirk's experience saved them both times, so I'd say Khan's a challenge.
My understanding is that Kirk's scream "Khaaaaaann!!" was really a fake scream to trick Khan into thinking he had won, when in reality Kirk had a backup plan with the Enterprise.
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Old July 30 2014, 07:00 AM   #85
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Re: So, is each movie someone's top favorite?

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
My understanding is that Kirk's scream "Khaaaaaann!!" was really a fake scream to trick Khan into thinking he had won, when in reality Kirk had a backup plan with the Enterprise.
You know I hear this all the time, and quite honestly think it's a silly take.

Look at Shatner's face. He's not faking anything.
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Old July 30 2014, 08:57 AM   #86
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Re: So, is each movie someone's top favorite?

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
GalaxyX wrote: View Post
My understanding is that Kirk's scream "Khaaaaaann!!" was really a fake scream to trick Khan into thinking he had won, when in reality Kirk had a backup plan with the Enterprise.
You know I hear this all the time, and quite honestly think it's a silly take.

Look at Shatner's face. He's not faking anything.
Well, he had to convince not only Khan and his followers, Kirk had to also convince McCoy, Saavik, Carol, and David. One slip from any of them over monitored communications could've toppled Kirk and Spock's plan. He couldn't risk that...besides, I think he figured on Saavik being even quicker on the uptake...but apparently not...which, either way worked to his advantage because of Saavik's discipline. Generally, his big three worries would've been McCoy, Carol, and David. The less they knew about the plan, the safer everyone was.
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Old July 30 2014, 10:09 AM   #87
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Re: So, is each movie someone's top favorite?

The fact that Khan couldn't figure out Kirk and Spock's by the book code is why I never believed he was a serious threat. It wasn't complicated...

TWOK Khan to me was crazy and not a good foil to Kirk. Abramverse Khan had more depth to him and I could understand his actions.
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Old July 30 2014, 10:55 AM   #88
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Re: So, is each movie someone's top favorite?

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
Well, everyone is entitled to TWOK and that's fine and dandy, but Khan nearly disabled/destroyed the Enterprise in its first encounter and trapped Kirk and the Away Team on a seemingly dead planet. Kirk's experience saved them both times, so I'd say Khan's a challenge.
The only reason Khan is a "challenge" is because his Starfleet opponents are portrayed as utter nimrods.

Reliant's crew lands on the wrong effing planet.

Kirk disregards SOP when the Reliant approaches and lets his ship get crippled.

Kirk stupidly leaves Chekov and Terrell armed even after Chekov admits "He put creatures in our bodies to control our minds," and says nothing about them having been removed, allowing them to kill Jedda and permitting Khan to get his hands on Genesis.

Had anyone been on the ball none of the above would have happened.
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Old July 30 2014, 11:03 AM   #89
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Re: So, is each movie someone's top favorite?

I will have to agree with Disco and Maurice on the above points.

It does not diminish my love for either The Wrath of Khan or Into Darkness, however.

But in all cases, I invoke the Martok2112 Law of Storytelling:
"Logic and physics will always yield to the needs of dramatic storytelling."

It is not so much a philosophy that guides me, personally, when I write (it certainly isn't a law I abide by. When I say "law"...it's more like "the law of gravity" kind of thing, rather than "THIS IS THE LAW")....but it is a philosophy that allows me to sit back, relax, and enjoy other movies, even if they do insult my intelligence a bit.

A lot of times, it's not so much the logic of how such moments came to be, but the underlying emotions that give power to such scenes.



Personal views only.
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Old July 30 2014, 11:41 AM   #90
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Re: So, is each movie someone's top favorite?

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
GalaxyX wrote: View Post
My understanding is that Kirk's scream "Khaaaaaann!!" was really a fake scream to trick Khan into thinking he had won, when in reality Kirk had a backup plan with the Enterprise.
You know I hear this all the time, and quite honestly think it's a silly take.

Look at Shatner's face. He's not faking anything.
For all we know this is the place they originally planned to put Spock's death in.
Then they changed their mind. And still kept the scene in because it was so powerful.


Anyway I don't think its the case that Kirk was particularly happy and victorious here. His ship had just been hammered. People been killed. His only child (as far as we know) almost killed. And because of bad decisions by Kirk. I still think Kirk has plenty of reasons to be angry here, even if he does have a back up plan.
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