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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old July 25 2014, 05:23 PM   #16
Enterprise1701
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Re: Admirals of Starfleet

Christopher wrote: View Post
In other words, the CSO would pretty much be to Starfleet as a whole what Data is to the Enterprise or Harry Kim to Voyager -- the officer responsible for allocating and coordinating the resources and personnel necessary to carry out the commanding officer's orders and working with other department heads to determine how that needs to be done.

So I think the description you offer for CSO should really be for the commanding admiral, e.g. Nogura. Which is probably the same thing as either "Commander, Starfleet" or Chief of Staff, I'm not sure.
Yeah, that's what I thought too. It's a bit simplified, but I thought Kirk was the highest ranked redshirt in Starfleet in the early 2270s. And so per DTI: Forgotten History, Admiral Antonio Delgado, the Chief of Starfleet Science Operations, is the highest ranked blueshirt in Starfleet.

I've always thought that C-in-C ranked just above Chief of Staff, but I don't know what to think of C-in-C in relation to Commander, Starfleet or Commanding Officer, Starfleet Command. I just realized that Protectors, Rough Beasts of Empire, The Struggle Within, Raise the Dawn, Silent Weapons, etc refer to Akaar as "Commander in Chief (of Starfleet)", but The Crimson Shadow refers to him as "Commanding Officer of Starfleet Command". So I guess those two terms are synonymous.

And I can't find any novel set in the 24th century that refers to a "Chief of Staff of Starfleet". Nor any novel set in the mid-23rd century that refers to a "Commander in Chief of Starfleet".

Y'know, why wasn't William Ross ever referred to as the "Commander in Chief"? It completely fits him.
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Old July 25 2014, 06:06 PM   #17
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Re: Admirals of Starfleet

It looks like Memory Beta tried to sort this out a few years ago. They concluded that C-in-C, Commander Starfleet, and Chief of Staff were separate positions:

Commander-in-Chief of the Federation Starfleet
Commanding Officer, Starfleet Command
Chief of Staff for the Federation Starfleet
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Old July 26 2014, 06:50 PM   #18
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Re: Admirals of Starfleet

'CinC' Commander in Chief...normally only applies to the President. In Star Trek that may be different.

Commander Starfleet, Starfleet Commander whatever, looks to be the title for the head of Starfleet that's been used on screen.

'Chief of Staff' is (in the real world) mostly an administrative assistant position and not in the direct chain-of-command....ie: the Starfleet Commander would have a 'Chief of Staff' to assist in the daily running of the commander's office....the CoS would not take over if the Commander was incapacitated...that would fall to the Deputy Starfleet Commander (if there is one) or the next designated senior officer. (Probably Chief of Starfleet Operations)

And don't confuse 'chief of staff' with the title Commander of the Joint Chiefs of Staff that the US military has...whole different ball of wax.

In the Star Trek universe its been pretty well established that there is an over all 'Commander' in charge of Starfleet...followed by chief's of other departments...Chief of Starfleet Operations, Chief of Starfleet Logistics, Chief of Starfleet Personnel, so on and so forth.

Wasn't Kirk at the time of TMP listed as 'Head of Starfleet Operation/Chief of SF Operations'?...and he still had to go 'upstairs' to talk Nogura into giving him the Enterprise back. Indicating that 'Chief of operations was a subordinate position to the Starfleet Commander.
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Old July 26 2014, 11:18 PM   #19
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Re: Admirals of Starfleet

Jakks wrote: View Post
Wasn't Kirk at the time of TMP listed as 'Head of Starfleet Operation/Chief of SF Operations'?...and he still had to go 'upstairs' to talk Nogura into giving him the Enterprise back. Indicating that 'Chief of operations was a subordinate position to the Starfleet Commander.
That part has already been clearly established.
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Old July 27 2014, 03:07 AM   #20
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Re: Admirals of Starfleet

Jakks wrote: View Post
'CinC' Commander in Chief...normally only applies to the President. In Star Trek that may be different.
Yes, it is different. As mentioned upthread, Admiral "Bill" in TUC was referred to as the C-in-C. (Although, IIRC, the credits identified this as "Chief in Command", but every other source seems to have gone with "Commander in Chief" instead.)

Commander Starfleet, Starfleet Commander whatever, looks to be the title for the head of Starfleet that's been used on screen.
I believe Morrow in TSFS identified himself as "Commander, Starfleet".

'Chief of Staff' is (in the real world) mostly an administrative assistant position and not in the direct chain-of-command....ie: the Starfleet Commander would have a 'Chief of Staff' to assist in the daily running of the commander's office....the CoS would not take over if the Commander was incapacitated...that would fall to the Deputy Starfleet Commander (if there is one) or the next designated senior officer. (Probably Chief of Starfleet Operations)

And don't confuse 'chief of staff' with the title Commander of the Joint Chiefs of Staff that the US military has...whole different ball of wax.
I'm just going from memory here, but I think it was the Starfleet org chart in FJ's Technical Manual that first put forward the idea that the top officer in Starfleet had the title "Chief of Staff".
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Old July 29 2014, 06:36 AM   #21
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Re: Admirals of Starfleet

Jakks wrote: View Post
'CinC' Commander in Chief...normally only applies to the President.
Not necessarily. The term can also be used to refer to the commanding officer of a theatre of operations. For instance, the commanding officers of the U.S.'s Unified Combatant Commands used to hold the title of "Commander-in-Chief, [UCC name] Command."

So it's entirely plausible that the commanding officer of the entire Federation Starfleet could hold the title of Commander-in-Chief of Starfleet, while the Federation President would presumably be the Commander-in-Chief of the entire UFP armed forces.
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Old August 24 2014, 09:24 PM   #22
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Re: Admirals of Starfleet

Here's something that I recently remembered. In MU: Glass Empires - Age of the Empress, Hoshi Sato convinces Fleet Captain A.G. Robinson to swear fealty to her by offering him the position of "Starfleet chief of staff" and rank of fleet admiral. It's not explicitly stated, but I assume that it's the highest position in the Imperial Starfleet since Sato stated that Gardner and his senior staff, presumably loyalists to Emperor Cochrane, had been "relieved". But as mentioned by other people, "chief of staff" is not always a topmost position in real life.

Then the 23rd century mirror universe stories have Garth of Izar, then Matthew Decker, then Spock, then Zhao Sheng as "Grand Admiral", which is explicitly stated as "the commander-in-chief" in the waning days of the Imperial Starfleet.
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Old September 8 2014, 02:38 AM   #23
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Re: Admirals of Starfleet

Huh. In Myriad Universes - Echoes and Refractions - A Gutted World, William Ross is stated to have replaced Leyton who died during the Borg invasion as Commander, Starfleet. Now if only we had gotten that in the prime reality. And Charles Watley was the current liaison between the Palais and Starfleet Command.
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Old September 8 2014, 09:04 PM   #24
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Re: Admirals of Starfleet

Sci wrote: View Post
So it's entirely plausible that the commanding officer of the entire Federation Starfleet could hold the title of Commander-in-Chief of Starfleet, while the Federation President would presumably be the Commander-in-Chief of the entire UFP armed forces.
This is assuming that the Federation does in fact have other armed forces that aren't Starfleet, which we don't know for sure...we've never seen them, anyway.

I'm sticking with my position though, that these different titles are all the same exact position: the top admiral in Starfleet. I don't see why it couldn't be like that. Different writers are going to come up with different phrases to use, but I see no reason to assume that they actually refer to different people. It seems obvious what they really mean. "C-in-C", "Commander, Starfleet", "Chief of Starfleet Operations", "Commanding Officer of Starfleet Command" - it's all the same.
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Old September 8 2014, 09:35 PM   #25
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Re: Admirals of Starfleet

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
So it's entirely plausible that the commanding officer of the entire Federation Starfleet could hold the title of Commander-in-Chief of Starfleet, while the Federation President would presumably be the Commander-in-Chief of the entire UFP armed forces.
This is assuming that the Federation does in fact have other armed forces that aren't Starfleet, which we don't know for sure...we've never seen them, anyway.

I'm sticking with my position though, that these different titles are all the same exact position: the top admiral in Starfleet. I don't see why it couldn't be like that. Different writers are going to come up with different phrases to use, but I see no reason to assume that they actually refer to different people. It seems obvious what they really mean. "C-in-C", "Commander, Starfleet", "Chief of Starfleet Operations", "Commanding Officer of Starfleet Command" - it's all the same.
Uh, hasn't it been established that "Chief of Starfleet Operations" cannot be like the others? That's the position Kirk held, and he certainly wasn't at the peak.
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Old September 9 2014, 12:09 AM   #26
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Re: Admirals of Starfleet

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
Uh, hasn't it been established that "Chief of Starfleet Operations" cannot be like the others? That's the position Kirk held, and he certainly wasn't at the peak.
You're right. Nogura was the Commanding Admiral of Starfleet at the time (or the C-in-C), and Kirk was under him, running the Operations division.
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Old September 9 2014, 12:21 AM   #27
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Re: Admirals of Starfleet

^He was a rear admiral, like Riker, right?
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Old September 9 2014, 01:27 AM   #28
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Re: Admirals of Starfleet

Paris wrote: View Post
^He was a rear admiral, like Riker, right?
Yes.
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Old September 9 2014, 04:05 AM   #29
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Re: Admirals of Starfleet

But those other positions are surely all the same. I mean, how different could "Commander, Starfleet", "Commander in chief of Starfleet", and "Commanding admiral of Starfleet" possibly be? IMHO, it's obvious those are identical. It's semantics. Nothing more.
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Old September 9 2014, 05:46 AM   #30
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Re: Admirals of Starfleet

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
But those other positions are surely all the same. I mean, how different could "Commander, Starfleet", "Commander in chief of Starfleet", and "Commanding admiral of Starfleet" possibly be? IMHO, it's obvious those are identical. It's semantics. Nothing more.
That's what I've always assumed. It makes no sense for them to be three different positions.
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