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Old July 3 2014, 07:19 AM   #421
xavier
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

borgboy wrote: View Post
xavier wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
Small rant.

"Some humans harbor a strong prejudice against Vulcans." noun

"The treaty is likely to prejudice the planet's status." verb

"But not all us humans are so prejudiced." adjective

Also...

"Homosexuality" and "Christianity" cannot have rights, as they are things.

"Homosexuals" and "Christians" may, because they are people.

Finally,


Jews are not a race, so do not fall under such a neat umbrella.

When I say race, I also mean nationality and ethnicity. I don't think it is accurate to compare the horrors that a race or a nationality faced in the world to the human sexuality or to rights based on people's sexuality. it is completely two different things and therefore can not be compared.

I find it interesting that many African Americans have said in a majority that the black civil rights can not be compared to homosexual rights. most African American support the definition of marriage which is a union between a man and a woman and this same African Americans largely support interracial marriage by 88% but then again, interracial marriage never redefined marriage and many African american are aware of this.

What interracial marriage did was strike down racism that interfered and prohibited the definition of marriage and this violated the rights of people who were in interracial relationships that wanted to get married.

The rights of interracial marriage never changed the definition of marriage by making it a union of two people. interracial marriage was still a man and a woman in holy matrimony as husband and wife and this therefore met the definition of marriage.

homosexual rights does not met the definition because it changes the definition of marriage interracial marriage did not change the definition of marriage and this is why I said you can not compare race/nationality/ethnicity rights to sexuality rights.

Like I said,in trek I welcome everyone regardless of their faith and beliefs but if we are talking of rights, I believe the rights needs to be fair and proportionate to what falls under the rights and this applies to the characters rights in star trek as well who are homosexual and this is the topic of this thread.
This is still going off topic, but I can't let this pass without comment.
Persecution is persecution regardless of it's origin being race or orientation. Hilter was putting gays in concentration camps alongside Jews and other "undesirables" and gays were actually treated worse in the camps than anyone else. There are still countries that have lengthy prison sentences and even executions for being gay.
Many African American leaders, including the great Coretta Scott King have compared the civil rights struggles of gays to African Americans.
Of course interracical marriage redefined marriage, it just did it in a way that doesn't bother some people. Race was once seen to be only for people of the same race just as it is defined, in some places, as only between the opposite sex. The pain of people denied marriage for their orientation is the same pain that people denied marriage for their race. Our feelings are the same as straight people, which may surprise some people.
"Fair and proportionate" rights would be equal. If you don't believe in equality then at least be honest enough to admit it.
I hope to God that people in the 22nd, 23rd and 24th century of the real world will be beyond this kind of petty bigotry we have to deal with now, and at least we have Star Trek to show us a better way to be (even if they still have fallen short of their promise of equality thus far in representation). I despair that I won't live long enough to see bigotry die out. I don't think some people realize just how much hurt they spread with their casual bigotry.

You need to stop calling people bigots because they disagree with you. that is not right and that is not even the point of star trek and the point of this thread. this thred is called homosexual rights in star trek so things like the definition marriage and if it is a right to change the definition in relations to homosexual rights in trek as well will be discussed and people will have different views

there is also no solid proof anywhere that Hitler was putting gays in concentration camps. this is once again another hollywood mythology that has spread like wild fire to so that they can push their agenda on us.

the truth is that in the 1940s homosexuality was hidden and hardly talked about. So the reality there could have hardly been no gays put in concentration camps because most homosexuals were closeted by 99% in the 1940s.

Star Trek has been a champion of civl rights and sometimes it shows the horror that people faced to get equal rights. Remember that episode with Captain Sisko trying to make it as a black writer in the 1960s?

star trek has touched on world war 2 in a couple of episodes, However I have yet to see them cover this issues of gays been put in concentration camps.

I have also heard a myth that some blacks had white slaves during the days of slavery in usa. the reality is that when people think of holocust, it is about 6 millions jews being wiped out and when people think of slavery it is about a whole race being enslaved by another race. there is no solid proof anywhere of the other latter that Hollywood has pushed on people. I have yet to see the history channel talk about gays being put in concentration camps and the history channel has done great documentaries in world war 2.

It is great that gay people want homosexual rights in fiction like star trek and in the real world but it is also good to not go overboard with a history by trying to pass a myth as fact.

I find it horrific that many gays are killed for being gay but you know what? chrisitans are also slaughted in many countians for being Christians or for even holding a bible in public. there are Christians churches that are bombed daily with thousands of chritians killed. there are Christians who had also jailed and excutected when they choose not to return to the old faith.In many middle and african countries it is against the law to be a Christian. So where is your outrage over that as well?

In Hollywood if you want a career boost, you can come out as gay and get it. in Hollywood if you want your career to die, just say you are are bible believing Christian and no one will give you an acting job ever again.

This is why I think homosexual rights in trek is just as importance as faith freedom. if any Hollywood franchise can cover both, it is star trek.



There are some African afrirican leaders that have compared this issues but the majoirty of afirican americans do not. majority of afirican americans have said you can not compare civil rights to gay rights.in america gays have all the rights there is, what they do not have is to redefined the definition of marriage.a defination that has existed for thousands of years and has been the bedrock of our civilaztion.

Also interracial marriage never redefined marriage. what it did was strike down racism that stooped the definition of marriage. interracial marriage never changed the definition that marriage is a union between a man and a woman. gay marriage changes the definition of a man and a woman to a union of two people regardless of their sex.that is not the same thing. which is why I have never supported the rights for gays to get married and i will not support that right even in star trek because the marriage requirements says a marriage is a union between a man and a woman as husband (male)and wife (female). I will like to see star trek uphold that view if they go into a topic like homosexual rights in the trek universe.

the problem is that everyone is hurting because people are easily called prejudice and hateful when you choose to disagree with them.

lastly you really need to stop calling people bigots because they do not agree with you.

You have been calling me a bigot since two days and not once have i ever called you a Christian bigot because i disagree with you. I d not need to play the bigot card because I can have a real civil debate with people on such complex issue like homosexual rights in the trek universe.


people in the real world have spoken,the courts may strike down a lot of stuff but every time the american people vote on the issues. it always them voting to keep the definition of marriage as a man and a woman. star trek should be a reflection of that should they dicuss the debate of homosexual right in the trek universe but trek being part of Hollywood it is no secret which root they will take.




Star trek was about the human philosophy, such philosophy is what gives us our rights and if star trek was to be accurate, i am sure the issues of gays will be be accepted because overall all we humans should have tolerance regardless of our differences but in no way should star trek ever air an episode or a film where they have one rights trumple over another rights. we can all agree to disagree and trek should have that presented well.

Last edited by xavier; July 3 2014 at 01:54 PM.
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Old July 3 2014, 07:42 AM   #422
PhoenixClass
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

T'Girl wrote: View Post
PhoenixClass wrote: View Post
the viewer is completely free to imagine that homosexuality exists and is accepted in human society.
Be really nice if that was backed up by something (anything).
But it does not have to be backed up by something. Canon is silent on it so the issue is fair game for the viewer to fill in at will.

A viewer could, as you seem to, imagine that homosexuality is gone from humanity. How such an situation would be feasible, I do not know, but since canon is silent on the matter one can choose that interpretation.
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Old July 3 2014, 09:54 AM   #423
MauriceNavidad
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

xavier wrote: View Post
I don't think it is accurate to compare the horrors that a race or a nationality faced in the world to the human sexuality or to rights based on people's sexuality. it is completely two different things and therefore can not be compared.
I think it's VERY "accurate" to compare the experiences of various groups who suffer long histories of persecution and unequal treatment under the law.

To try to put this back on-topic, as Star Trek portrays humans in relationships which are basically beastiality (humans mating with other species) thus a society which accepts that seems unlikely to have a problem with two or more consenting adults of the same species engaging in a relationship, regardless of their genders. (I suspect this has been mentioned upthread, but I didn't see it.)
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Old July 3 2014, 02:29 PM   #424
1001001
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

xavier wrote: View Post
there is also no solid proof anywhere that Hitler was putting gays in concentration camps. this is once again another hollywood mythology that has spread like wild fire to so that they can push their agenda on us.

the truth is that in the 1940s homosexuality was hidden and hardly talked about. So the reality there could have hardly been no gays put in concentration camps because most homosexuals were closeted by 99% in the 1940s.

Star Trek has been a champion of civl rights and sometimes it shows the horror that people faced to get equal rights. Remember that episode with Captain Sisko trying to make it as a black writer in the 1960s?

star trek has touched on world war 2 in a couple of episodes, However I have yet to see them cover this issues of gays been put in concentration camps.

I have also heard a myth that some blacks had white slaves during the days of slavery in usa. the reality is that when people think of holocust, it is about 6 millions jews being wiped out and when people think of slavery it is about a whole race being enslaved by another race. there is no solid proof anywhere of the other latter that Hollywood has pushed on people. I have yet to see the history channel talk about gays being put in concentration camps and the history channel has done great documentaries in world war 2.

It is great that gay people want homosexual rights in fiction like star trek and in the real world but it is also good to not go overboard with a history by trying to pass a myth as fact.
Are you fucking kidding me?

Paragraph 175?

The Pink Triangle?

http://www.ushmm.org/information/exh...of-homosexuals


Either you're a troll or a terribly misinformed homophobe. In either case that's enough. Do not post this stuff again. If you want to debate this topic, join TNZ and enter the debate there.
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Old July 3 2014, 02:42 PM   #425
Ensign_Redshirt
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

xavier wrote: View Post
there is also no solid proof anywhere that Hitler was putting gays in concentration camps. this is once again another hollywood mythology that has spread like wild fire to so that they can push their agenda on us.
Quit lying.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Clasen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_D%C3%B6rmer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Gorath

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Heckmann

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Seel
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Old July 3 2014, 03:03 PM   #426
1001001
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Ensign_Redshirt wrote: View Post
xavier wrote: View Post
there is also no solid proof anywhere that Hitler was putting gays in concentration camps. this is once again another hollywood mythology that has spread like wild fire to so that they can push their agenda on us.
Quit lying.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Clasen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_D%C3%B6rmer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Gorath

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Heckmann

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Seel
I understand your desire to reply, but I've addressed it so please let it go. This has been a pretty good discussion on topic, and if we can keep it open, I'd like to do so.

Thanks
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Old July 3 2014, 06:29 PM   #427
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

wulfio; wrote:
maybe the networks put too much pressure on them to tone it down.
More likely the producers who succeeded Roddenberry had other viewpoints and priorities, as Roddenberry's health faded his influence over the show's direction faded as well.

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Old July 12 2014, 11:49 AM   #428
junkdata
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Reading up on this thread, as someone directed me to it.

Your long post interested me Xavier...

Bigots are defined by intransigent opinions, that refuse to conceive of contradictory evidence, and a refusal to countenance or respect those who disagree with them. it is a thin line between faith and bigotry, but I think most people would agree the concept of attacking those who think different is a landmark on that border.

Actually wikipedia has quite a bit to say about homosexuals in ww2, and wikipedia is not "hollywood". Is it accurate? Biased? Can anyone change it? Well good luck messing around with a holocaust page on wikipedia...

So lets look at the "facts"-

Wikipedia - Between 1933 and 1945, an estimated 100,000 men were arrested as homosexuals, of whom some 50,000 were officially sentenced.[1] Most of these men served time in regular prisons, and an estimated 5,000 to 15,000 of those sentenced were incarcerated in Nazi concentration camps.[1] It is unclear how many of the 5,000 to 15,000 eventually perished in the camps, but leading scholar Rüdiger Lautmann believes that the death rate of homosexuals in concentration camps may have been as high as 60%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecu..._the_Holocaust

Hitler was clearly no fan of teh gays. Furthermore, his whole ideology and the contradiction with previous licentiousness in Germany, is pretty clear for people to see.



xavier - the truth is that in the 1940s homosexuality was hidden and hardly talked about. So the reality there could have hardly been no gays put in concentration camps because most homosexuals were closeted by 99% in the 1940s.
No. Thats conjecture, a bullsh-t statistic and a circular argument. And pretty s____ conjecture at that.

Star Trek has been a champion of civl rights and sometimes it shows the horror that people faced to get equal rights. Remember that episode with Captain Sisko trying to make it as a black writer in the 1960s?
This is true, to an extent. Nothing with regard to homosexuality though. And as stated in the other thread, Roddenbery and his friend Rod Serling, have both been documented substancially as homophobic, although I fully accept this wouldnt have been considered as such in their era.. So essentially you are looking at people who were hostage to their era, (like slave traders or nazis...)

Roddenbery definitely changed his mind after the AIDs crisis. Serling died before it.

star trek has touched on world war 2 in a couple of episodes, However I have yet to see them cover this issues of gays been put in concentration camps.
Well thats a point for the wrong team bro.

I have also heard a myth that some blacks had white slaves during the days of slavery in usa. the reality is that when people think of holocust, it is about 6 millions jews being wiped out and when people think of slavery it is about a whole race being enslaved by another race. there is no solid proof anywhere of the other latter that Hollywood has pushed on people. I have yet to see the history channel talk about gays being put in concentration camps and the history channel has done great documentaries in world war 2.
White slaves existed. I dont know about black ownership, but white slaves are very well documented.

Anyone who thinks slavery is a whole race being enslaved, is developmentally challenged. One word. Africa. It is fair to say the rationale for slavery largely created the prevailing concept of "race" and cast a large section of people as animals and established an idea of northern europeans as superior and a whole separate color to other people, on the basis of translucent skin and a melatonin deficiency.

I find it horrific that many gays are killed for being gay but you know what? chrisitans are also slaughted in many countians for being Christians or for even holding a bible in public. there are Christians churches that are bombed daily with thousands of chritians killed. there are Christians who had also jailed and excutected when they choose not to return to the old faith.In many middle and african countries it is against the law to be a Christian. So where is your outrage over that as well?
No one is slaughtered for going about their business. They are slaughtered because others are incapable of the same.

Muslims are the biggest victims of slaughter on the planet, last I checked. Even if we look at Israel/Palestine, - what is the ratio again, innocent or not?

In Hollywood if you want a career boost, you can come out as gay and get it. in Hollywood if you want your career to die, just say you are are bible believing Christian and no one will give you an acting job ever again.
Simply not true. Lots of christians in hollywood and a lot of people who were blackballed or shunned because of their sexuality. Being "gay" was not the new black, until very recently, and it is still debatable what effect this has on peoples careers. Brokeback mountain is two straight actors for a reason.

Zachary Quinto has no great worries about coming out as a Catholic.


This is why I think homosexual rights in trek is just as importance as faith freedom. if any Hollywood franchise can cover both, it is star trek.
Ish. Homosexuality isnt really a right, any more than being black is. Freedom of belief is one of the most basic freedoms though, so I guess we agree on its prominence to the human experience. The thing is bigotry is not to be tolerated because thats one set of rights trumping another, and religious bigotry does exist almost endemic to religion, whereas the only bigotry associated with homosexuality is a lack of regard for sexually associating with the opposite sex. Frankly the real issue underpinning this is a fluid understanding of gender and sexuality rather than a binary one. When it comes to religion, often it is built on paradigms that are socially outmoded, however much they are relevant to people are an individual/familial lifestyle choice.

The two do come into conflict somewhat, as religion has a social role of emphasizing the family unit as established as normal by that religion. In reality, our nuclear family is in no way normal, and sexuality and even gender look more like fluid concepts by the day.

There are some African afrirican leaders that have compared this issues but the majoirty of afirican americans do not.
Nice to know you have spoken to them...

majority of afirican americans have said you can not compare civil rights to gay rights.in america gays have all the rights there is, what they do not have is to redefined the definition of marriage.a defination that has existed for thousands of years and has been the bedrock of our civilaztion.
In the work place as least, society has spoken and however different, all the isms are targeted and shunned by our prevailing orthodoxy.

The concept of marriage is neither hostage to christianity, nor is it in any way a bracket that is synonymous with the nuclear family and monogamy.

Also interracial marriage never redefined marriage. what it did was strike down racism that stooped the definition of marriage. interracial marriage never changed the definition that marriage is a union between a man and a woman.
There were literally miscegenation laws around at the time, but agreed in principal. America was a messed up place.

gay marriage changes the definition of a man and a woman to a union of two people regardless of their sex.that is not the same thing. which is why I have never supported the rights for gays to get married and i will not support that right even in star trek because the marriage requirements says a marriage is a union between a man and a woman as husband (male)and wife (female). I will like to see star trek uphold that view if they go into a topic like homosexual rights in the trek universe.
Polygamy.

the problem is that everyone is hurting because people are easily called prejudice and hateful when you choose to disagree with them.
To an extent. Also people are accused of playing card when they bring up legitmite issues and the same idiots then try to sweep any mention of the issues under the carpet and call the person mentioning them "baiters" or such.

And again - America is one of the worst nations on the planet for this crap and also just happens to be one of the most messed up socially when it comes to these issues, compared to western europe anyways.




people in the real world have spoken,the courts may strike down a lot of stuff but every time the american people vote on the issues. it always them voting to keep the definition of marriage as a man and a woman.
For now...

star trek should be a reflection of that should they dicuss the debate of homosexual right in the trek universe but trek being part of Hollywood it is no secret which root they will take.
Not really. ST should be a view of the future with American values, and one would hope human values. It should also feature a diverse array of alternatives. Some respected and close to home and some completely messed up.


Star trek was about the human philosophy, such philosophy is what gives us our rights and if star trek was to be accurate, i am sure the issues of gays will be be accepted
Its really more akin to liberal American philosophy.

because overall all we humans should have tolerance regardless of our differences but in no way should star trek ever air an episode or a film where they have one rights trumple over another rights. we can all agree to disagree and trek should have that presented well.
Right "trumple" all over other rights constantly, however the core rights, if they exist should indeed be cherished by ST.
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Old July 19 2014, 11:51 AM   #429
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Maurice wrote: View Post
... Star Trek portrays humans in relationships which are basically beastiality (humans mating with other species)
Beastility is people having sex with animals, that where you get the "beast" in bestiality. Which of Trek's intelligent species do you believe to be "animals?"

... thus a society which accepts that ...
I never considered this before, but given how Vulcans feel about Humans and non-Vulcans in general, I wonder how they felt about Spock?

A contaminate in the Vulcan superiority?

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Old July 19 2014, 01:33 PM   #430
xavier
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
... Star Trek portrays humans in relationships which are basically beastiality (humans mating with other species)
Beastility is people having sex with animals, that where you get the "beast" in bestiality. Which of Trek's intelligent species do you believe to be "animals?"

... thus a society which accepts that ...
I never considered this before, but given how Vulcans feel about Humans and non-Vulcans in general, I wonder how they felt about Spock?

A contaminate in the Vulcan superiority?


Do you think Kirk having a three way in Star Trek Into Darkness with women who had cat features qualifies as bestiality?.

What would Spock think? I don't know.

Spock seems to dislike prejudice so my guess is if they can still pass as humans or Aliens then Spock would not mind.
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Old July 19 2014, 01:35 PM   #431
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Bestiality/zoophilia is about humans having sex with non-humans. It's a subdomain of interspecies sex. Intelligence has nothing to do with it.
If gorillas could read, write, talk and build computers, having sex with them would still be bestiality.
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Old July 19 2014, 01:48 PM   #432
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Bestiality/zoophilia is about humans having sex with non-humans.
Or for Star Trek purposes, Salome Jens humanoids having sex with non-Salome Jens humanoids.

All Star Trek "species" are an extension (or supplementation) of Earthbound races.
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Old July 19 2014, 02:21 PM   #433
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
... Star Trek portrays humans in relationships which are basically beastiality (humans mating with other species)
Beastility is people having sex with animals, that where you get the "beast" in bestiality. Which of Trek's intelligent species do you believe to be "animals?"

... thus a society which accepts that ...
I never considered this before, but given how Vulcans feel about Humans and non-Vulcans in general, I wonder how they felt about Spock?

A contaminate in the Vulcan superiority?


I think we see lots of hints that both versions of Spock is looked down upon by "pure" Vulcans.
The strongest examples I can think of are Spock being bullied by Vulcan children who make racist comments about his human heritage, Sarek seems very concerned that Spock be Vulcan. Why would it be so bad if Spock were more human, like his mother? I always found it hard to like Sarek completely because of his attitude towards Spock. I find Sarek interesting and charismatic, but not always likable.
There's a big storyline running thru Enterprise about Vulcan/human relations, and how the Vulcans treat humans as needed their custodial control for their own good. On ENT, Vulcan attitudes towards humans are seen the way a weary parent handles a rebellious child who needs to be controlled to stop them from hurting themselves. That relationship does evolve, and it's clearly not the same as it would be in the 23rd and 24th century, but it's the strongest look we have at human/Vulcan relations.
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Old July 19 2014, 05:01 PM   #434
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

I would say one of the longest arcs of Star Trek is Sarek's initial discomfiture and/or disapproval with Spock's non-Vulcanism, which he gradually conquers. In that respect I'm very glad we got to see him in the films.

Spock being bullied by children doesn't really mean much to me, as children bullying children is, for better or worse, not exactly an uncommon phenomenon, and to my mind shouldn't be used as a representation of how adults might feel.

While there's obviously some anti-humanism sentiment during ENT and in the Nuverse, I'd like to think that by the time of TNG (and hopefully earlier), that's become a thing of the past for the most part. Heck, given the isolated incidents we see, we could be seeing exceptions rather than rules in any cse.
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Old July 19 2014, 05:32 PM   #435
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

xavier wrote:
majority of afirican americans have said you can not compare civil rights to gay rights.
[citation needed]

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Bestiality/zoophilia is about humans having sex with non-humans. It's a subdomain of interspecies sex. Intelligence has nothing to do with it.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bestiality

4. sexual relations between a person and an animal; sodomy.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bestiality

sex between a person and an animal
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bestiality

3. Sexual relations between a human and an animal.
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