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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old April 18 2014, 02:14 PM   #31
The Wormhole
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Re: Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone - July 2014

I'd be surprised if Pocket or IDW didn't attempt some sort of crossover for the 50th. Even if it is just a linked storyline like most of Pocket's multi-series crossovers (you know, Invasion, Day of Honor, Section 31, that sort of thing). Or even standalone adventures for each series that culminates in a team-up finale (like Gateways or IDW's Doctor Who 50th anniversary series).
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Old July 9 2014, 07:02 PM   #32
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Re: Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone - July 2014

Any word on this comic book? It comes out next week, I guess. Greatly looking forward to it!
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Old July 11 2014, 12:36 AM   #33
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Re: Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone - July 2014

Christopher wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Seven of Nine also had a prominent role in Braga's Hive series. Or did Braga's involvement in that negate any licensing concerns?
Doubtful, because he doesn't own the characters, CBS does. I guess there's enough flexibility in the licensing deal to permit guest stars, or maybe they can be licensed on a case-by-case basis.
Well, they're going so far as to use DS9 promotional shots for the "Q Gambit" photo covers, never mind the contents of the comics. Either they've sorted a short-term general Prime universe licence for that - with the Flesh and Stone one-shot them taking further advantage of it - or there's some serious flexibility as long as they don't use the actual DS9/VOY/ENT logos.
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Old July 11 2014, 02:37 AM   #34
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Re: Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone - July 2014

SoM wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Seven of Nine also had a prominent role in Braga's Hive series. Or did Braga's involvement in that negate any licensing concerns?
Doubtful, because he doesn't own the characters, CBS does. I guess there's enough flexibility in the licensing deal to permit guest stars, or maybe they can be licensed on a case-by-case basis.
Well, they're going so far as to use DS9 promotional shots for the "Q Gambit" photo covers, never mind the contents of the comics. Either they've sorted a short-term general Prime universe licence for that - with the Flesh and Stone one-shot them taking further advantage of it - or there's some serious flexibility as long as they don't use the actual DS9/VOY/ENT logos.
IDW used to have a DS9 license, maybe that presents some loophole they're taking advantage of with The Q Gambit?
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Old July 11 2014, 03:13 AM   #35
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Re: Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone - July 2014

It could be CBS can decide to allow IDW to utilize things on a case-by-case basis as there is no competing comics license holder at the moment?
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Old July 13 2014, 01:53 AM   #36
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Re: Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone - July 2014

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
So no true 5-series crossover has ever been made? Pity. It seems like a lucrative opportunity to me. Though I suppose it would be difficult to have every single main character from all 5 series to have a meaningful role.
I think this is an alarming practice, where ONE person says they're interested in seeing something in print, and therefore they think they're qualified to assert it will be profitable for the publisher.
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Old July 15 2014, 01:19 PM   #37
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Re: Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone - July 2014

Some preview pages here-
http://www.thetrekcollective.com/201...view.html#more


And just to be a big geek I'm slightly irked straight away that there's a Benzite with a respiration device when DS9: The Ship showed they didn't need them anymore.



There's also a panel that describes the Doctor thus- "Emergency Medical Hologram that gained sentience during USS Voyager's long return to the Alpha Quadrant."
Hmm, would you say he gained sentience during the trip? Seems to me he grew an awful lot as an individual but was always sentient. Hard to say... what would others think?
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Old July 15 2014, 01:39 PM   #38
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Re: Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone - July 2014

^I believe that he was sentient from the moment he was activated.
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Old July 15 2014, 01:42 PM   #39
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Re: Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone - July 2014

Ethros wrote: View Post
And just to be a big geek I'm slightly irked straight away that there's a Benzite with a respiration device when DS9: The Ship showed they didn't need them anymore.
Most humans don't need reading glasses anymore in the 23rd century, but Kirk is allergic to Retnax-5. Maybe something similar is the case here.


There's also a panel that describes the Doctor thus- "Emergency Medical Hologram that gained sentience during USS Voyager's long return to the Alpha Quadrant."
Hmm, would you say he gained sentience during the trip? Seems to me he grew an awful lot as an individual but was always sentient. Hard to say... what would others think?
Holodeck characters appear sentient even though they're not. One can't really tell from cursory observation just when the Doctor became sentient. I tend to think that the potential was always there, but most EMHs weren't meant to be kept in continuous use, so they weren't given the opportunity for the necessary complexity to grow in their neural networks. And the unusual challenges the EMH faced aboard Voyager may have forced his software to drive itself to a higher level of operation in order to cope with them; and Kes's encouragement of his development probably helped as well. But I don't think a specific moment of "awakening" can be pinpointed; it was probably more a gradual emergence of complexity, like an infant growing into a child, only faster.
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Old July 15 2014, 03:23 PM   #40
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Re: Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone - July 2014

Thanks for sharing the preview.

I don't see a problem with the Benzite breather, too. Maybe a treatment is necessary to get rid of the breathers and not every Benzite is willing to do that. That's suggested in the Worlds RPG.

In STO, Benzites are playable characters and it's the player's choice whether to install a breather or not. I'm trying to think of a real life analog but nothings springs to mind.

Anyway, there are two things to nitpick in the preview. Please not, I only skimmed the text to avoid severe spoilers (and because I don't have Retnax-5 ). However, on first glance every doctor depicted therein is a white!Human. On second glance, there's the Doctor, and one of the Human doctors has a darker shade of skin, so he could be ethnic.

It's not like that I have anything against white people or Humans, but the Federation's strength is diversity. Moreover, comics don't have a budget limit - why not have a non-humanoid? Something mind-bending, or alien eye-candy.
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Old July 15 2014, 04:30 PM   #41
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Re: Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone - July 2014

Markonian wrote: View Post
However, on first glance every doctor depicted therein is a white!Human. On second glance, there's the Doctor, and one of the Human doctors has a darker shade of skin, so he could be ethnic.
In the shot of the doctors at the conference, the second one from the left could be Asian, or maybe not. The guy with the goatee seems possibly Middle Eastern or South Asian, and the second guy from the right looks ethnically ambiguous, and it almost looks like he has a trace of Bajoran nose ridges. But they're all ambiguous enough that it's hard to tell. Oddly, though, they all appear to be male.

In the flashbacks, the first panel shows a couple of women and a dark-skinned man, plus a Bolian, the Benzite from before, and an orange-skinned bald humanoid in the foreground. The second panel includes two female doctors and a Vulcan male with brownish skin. Still, Caucasian human males do seem to dominate.

What strikes me about the art is that the renderings of the tricorders, which are supposed to be the featured items in the story, are so crude. They're just these featureless, angular boxes that look like something a bunch of kids made out of cardboard.
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Old July 15 2014, 09:42 PM   #42
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Re: Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone - July 2014

Markonian wrote: View Post
In STO, Benzites are playable characters and it's the player's choice whether to install a breather or not. I'm trying to think of a real life analog but nothings springs to mind.
Kids with asthma. Some have to carry their puffer everywhere they go. Others just on sports afternoon. Others need to be placed on a nebulizer every night.

Diabetics. Some always carry jelly beans or chocolate. Others inject insulin every day, but not all.
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Old July 15 2014, 09:56 PM   #43
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Re: Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone - July 2014

While we're on the subject of Benzites, apparently they still need reminding to share relevant information rather than hoard it until they have a full solution . I like that nod to their original appearances.

Christopher wrote: View Post
In the shot of the doctors at the conference, the second one from the left could be Asian, or maybe not. The guy with the goatee seems possibly Middle Eastern or South Asian, and the second guy from the right looks ethnically ambiguous, and it almost looks like he has a trace of Bajoran nose ridges. But they're all ambiguous enough that it's hard to tell. Oddly, though, they all appear to be male.
There's one female doctor in the first set, I think; though she has a rather "mannish" jaw, so maybe she managed to fool them and thus get round the "no girls" rule.

Presumably the medical establishment has confirmed that girls are carriers of cooties?
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Old July 15 2014, 10:37 PM   #44
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Re: Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone - July 2014

Christopher wrote: View Post
One can't really tell from cursory observation just when the Doctor became sentient. I tend to think that the potential was always there, but most EMHs weren't meant to be kept in continuous use, so they weren't given the opportunity for the necessary complexity to grow in their neural networks. And the unusual challenges the EMH faced aboard Voyager may have forced his software to drive itself to a higher level of operation in order to cope with them; and Kes's encouragement of his development probably helped as well. But I don't think a specific moment of "awakening" can be pinpointed; it was probably more a gradual emergence of complexity, like an infant growing into a child, only faster.
Just out of curiosity, at what point is a human child considered to be truly sapient? You've discussed before the fact that dogs might be at four-year old level, which surprised me (and caused me, actually, to rethink my attitude toward them), and I recall you posting an interesting link to a discussion of sapience or its potential in octopus, in spite of their short lives. So is there a consensus or majority position on when a human makes the transition from sapience-in-potential to true sapience, if such a determination can even be made?
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Old July 15 2014, 11:58 PM   #45
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Re: Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone - July 2014

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
In the shot of the doctors at the conference, the second one from the left could be Asian, or maybe not. The guy with the goatee seems possibly Middle Eastern or South Asian, and the second guy from the right looks ethnically ambiguous, and it almost looks like he has a trace of Bajoran nose ridges. But they're all ambiguous enough that it's hard to tell. Oddly, though, they all appear to be male.
There's one female doctor in the first set, I think; though she has a rather "mannish" jaw, so maybe she managed to fool them and thus get round the "no girls" rule.
Do you mean the second one from the left? I wasn't sure about that one, but now that I look more closely, I think there's a ponytail there (I thought it was part of the background scenery before), and though there aren't any unambiguous curves, that doctor's build is rather slender compared to the rest. (Maybe that doctor's a Hermat?)


Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Just out of curiosity, at what point is a human child considered to be truly sapient? You've discussed before the fact that dogs might be at four-year old level, which surprised me (and caused me, actually, to rethink my attitude toward them), and I recall you posting an interesting link to a discussion of sapience or its potential in octopus, in spite of their short lives. So is there a consensus or majority position on when a human makes the transition from sapience-in-potential to true sapience, if such a determination can even be made?
I don't think there's a line you can draw there; it would be more of a gradual transition as the brain organizes itself to work on a conscious level. I recently read an article about how anaesthesia works, and it suggested that when a brain recovers from deep anaesthesia, it sort of "reboots" itself, its different parts testing out a variety of ways of interacting and feeling their way back by trial and error to the mode of interaction that allows them to interconnect smoothly, resulting in the emergent property of conscious thought. I would imagine that an infant's brain does much the same thing more slowly, because it's learning for the first time. We know that a human brain actually has more neural pathways to start with, and that as the most useful connections are established or reinforced through trial and error, the extraneous ones are discarded. A mind isn't really a single entity -- it's countless components gradually learning how to work together and form a pattern that operates on a higher level.

And by the same token, consciousness isn't a single process but a bunch of different processes working in concert, processes that develop at different rates. So there's no Rubicon to cross, no clear dividing line between sapience and its absence; there's just a series of developmental milestones. What we consider full sapience is the sum of all those milestones, but many of the individual ones are found in the animal kingdom.
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