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Old July 15 2014, 06:37 AM   #286
C.E. Evans
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

But the truth is that the Federation has ships other than Starfleet ones. It's just like saying America has American planes. Not all of them are military.
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Old July 15 2014, 06:49 AM   #287
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
But the truth is that the Federation has ships other than Starfleet ones. It's just like saying America has American planes. Not all of them are military.
Of course there are ships in the Federation other than Starfleet ships. And we know even less about those.

Here's a quote from Memory Alpha:

Memory Alpha wrote:
The exact division of powers between the Federation government and the governments of its member worlds is unknown, though various episodes indicate the Federation placed great value on maintaining local sovereignty over local affairs. Member worlds were left to manage their own governance in accordance with their own traditions and local laws, so long as the general requirements of membership were met, similar to how the member states of the European Union are bound together today.
I see a lot of room, including for local governments to have their own ships manned and under the authority of their own local military services that are not automatically bequeathed to the Federation.
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Old July 15 2014, 06:55 AM   #288
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

That's really splitting hairs. They would still be Federation ships when all is said and done.
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Old July 15 2014, 06:57 AM   #289
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
That's really splitting hairs. They would still be Federation ships when all is said and done.
So you keep saying. You still haven't cited a source that says so.
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Old July 15 2014, 07:01 AM   #290
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Ithekro wrote: View Post
The Federation seems at times more like an alliance of planets. Each world still has its own laws and ships. At least in the 22nd and 23rd centuries. In the 24th century things seem to start getting closer together, but not in Kirk's day. You have Starfleet ships run entirely by Vulcans and lots of ship crewed entirely by humans. But these are Starfleet....military ships. What of the civilian ships, the ships that are still part of the planetary defense forces that are not under Starfleet?

The trouble is that we don't have a good equivalent to test this in history. The closes we have would be the United States in the 1780s under the Articles of Confederation. In the days when it was one country but also 13 countries with there own taxes, and forces. You might have a United States ship, but you might also have a Virginian Ship. The ships would identify as from the state rather that the country more often than not. This stayed somewhat like this even after the Constitution was adopted and even to the 20th century when the state militia were changed into the National Guard. Prior to that you might have a ship as part of the New York Militia and it not technically an American warship, though it had been, and by that point the line were going way. But it took time even following the Civil War to get then all to be American ships, rather than ships from a particular state, unless it was part of the military or registered specifically to the United States.

The other option would the European Union. You would also have British trawlers, that while still part of the European Union, would not be a European ship. It is a British ship. If the EU had a unified or more allied military structure, you might ship warship (or today in space you do see European station bits) listed as European, but you would also see ships that are British or German or French. These would not be European ships, even though they are part of the European Union.

Similarly, a Vulcan ship not under Starfleet would more than likely be a Vulcan ship, not a Federation ship, even though Vulcan is part of the Federation. The ship would not be part of a listing of Federation ships, as it is specifically Vulcan, not Federation.
Yes, I can see member worlds having their own ship registries. Obviously non member planets would. But even the Federation worlds could have many non-Federation registered ships.
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Old July 15 2014, 07:03 AM   #291
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
That's really splitting hairs. They would still be Federation ships when all is said and done.
So you keep saying. You still haven't cited a source that says so.
I cited several of them, you chose to ignore them.

Any time there's been mention of Federation ships other than Starfleet ones.
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Old July 15 2014, 07:06 AM   #292
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Thus a grey area within the Federation to have more ship named Enterprise that are not strictly Federation ships. It is highly unlikely that the member worlds would have starships in their forces or registered to civilian companies on their planets, and it is unlikely they would have explorers, as that is Starfleet's job. But there is room for other types of ships that might take the famous name of Archer's command.

It could be as simple as a passenger ship. If one thinks about American ships named Constitution, the list almost always comes out with only one ship. Sometimes it adds in the cancelled battlecruiser that was to take that name. What is usually not seen is the passenger liner SS Constitution. While the ship was built and registered in the United States, it is not considered an American ship because she's not owned by the American government. She was a civilian vessel.

Likewise, ships owned by State governments are not generally considered American ships because they are not owned by the United States government. They are owned by the state they operate in. While the state is part of the United States, the usage of ownership and reference to what the ship is usually does not cover it under a listing of American ships.

Something similar would be logical for the Federation, who is suppose to have an even more loose relationship to its member worlds that the United States has to its states, and civilian ships would not be considered owned by the Federation, but by a company or individual. Jones's J-type vessel was not a Federation ship if I recall.
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Old July 15 2014, 07:12 AM   #293
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

I think the ship's computer would still have included such vessels as Federation ships called Enterprise, even if they were civilian.
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Old July 15 2014, 07:14 AM   #294
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
That's really splitting hairs. They would still be Federation ships when all is said and done.
So you keep saying. You still haven't cited a source that says so.
I cited several of them, you chose to ignore them.

Any time there's been mention of Federation ships other than Starfleet ones.
The mere mention of a Federation ship says nothing about whether worlds can have their own ships that are not Federation ships. The concept of private ownership exists on other worlds besides Earth. There's no reason why all property in the Federation belongs to the Federation.

I don't agree that the only way to parse "Federation ship" is as meaning a ship somewhere in the Federation. A perfectly reasonable way to parse "Federation ship" is as meaning a ship belonging to the Federation. Parsing it the latter way would exclude any ships registered to member worlds that are not also registered to the Federation.
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Old July 15 2014, 07:24 AM   #295
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post

So you keep saying. You still haven't cited a source that says so.
I cited several of them, you chose to ignore them.

Any time there's been mention of Federation ships other than Starfleet ones.
The mere mention of a Federation ship says nothing about whether worlds can have their own ships that are not Federation ships. The concept of private ownership exists on other worlds besides Earth. There's no reason why all property in the Federation belongs to the Federation.

I don't agree that the only way to parse "Federation ship" is as meaning a ship somewhere in the Federation. A perfectly reasonable way to parse "Federation ship" is as meaning a ship belonging to the Federation.
Once again, that's splitting hairs because a ship that comes from the Federation or operates under the authority of a single Federation member world/agency is still a Federation ship. You can be more specific by saying that it's from Earth or Vulcan, but as long as those worlds are recognized as Federation members, so are their ships, especially in foreign (non-Federation) affairs.
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Old July 15 2014, 07:31 AM   #296
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

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But since Scotty said "my old ship", maybe the computer eliminated any ships with no living former crew members. I prefer to say they simply hadn't thought of making shows set in the decades for Kirk prior to that TNG episode.
For what it's worth, the chakoteya.net transcript of the episode quotes the dialogue thusly; I haven't had the chance to confirm it's precisely what was said on-screen:

COMPUTER: Please enter programme.

SCOTT: The android at the bar said you could show me my old ship. Let me see it.

COMPUTER: Insufficient data. Please specify parameters.

SCOTT: The Enterprise. Show me the Bridge of the Enterprise, you chattering piece of ...

COMPUTER: There have been five Federation ships with that name. Please specify by registry number.

SCOTT: NCC One Seven Oh One. No bloody A, B, C, or D.

COMPUTER: Programme complete. Enter when ready.
Can't fault the computer for not knowing which ship Scott meant to start with there, since there's (according to the transcript) eleven ships Scott might plausibly have meant. Between ``my old ship'' and ``the Enterprise'' the computer should've been able to pin it down to one of just two (possibly three, if Scott had a hand in constructing the Enterprise-B enough to have a credible emotional claim to it).

Best I can work out is maybe the computer started from ``any of the ships Scott had served on'', narrowed to ``NCC 1701 ships'' and then not-quite-appropriately expanded that from two/three to the five NCC 1701 Enterprises. I can almost make out the logic in that chain of search results.
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Old July 15 2014, 07:31 AM   #297
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I cited several of them, you chose to ignore them.

Any time there's been mention of Federation ships other than Starfleet ones.
The mere mention of a Federation ship says nothing about whether worlds can have their own ships that are not Federation ships. The concept of private ownership exists on other worlds besides Earth. There's no reason why all property in the Federation belongs to the Federation.

I don't agree that the only way to parse "Federation ship" is as meaning a ship somewhere in the Federation. A perfectly reasonable way to parse "Federation ship" is as meaning a ship belonging to the Federation.
Once again, that's splitting hairs because a ship that comes from the Federation or operates under the authority of a single Federation member world/agency is still a Federation ship. You can be more specific by saying that it's from Earth or Vulcan, but as long as those worlds are recognized as Federation members, so are their ships, especially in foreign (non-Federation) affairs.
That's if you parse "Federation ship" to mean that. The whole point here is that that need not be the way it was parsed in "Relics". What you are saying is only one assumption of what it might mean. Clearly, it's the one you favor, but that doesn't mean it's the only reasonable way to read it.
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Old July 15 2014, 07:35 AM   #298
C.E. Evans
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post

The mere mention of a Federation ship says nothing about whether worlds can have their own ships that are not Federation ships. The concept of private ownership exists on other worlds besides Earth. There's no reason why all property in the Federation belongs to the Federation.

I don't agree that the only way to parse "Federation ship" is as meaning a ship somewhere in the Federation. A perfectly reasonable way to parse "Federation ship" is as meaning a ship belonging to the Federation.
Once again, that's splitting hairs because a ship that comes from the Federation or operates under the authority of a single Federation member world/agency is still a Federation ship. You can be more specific by saying that it's from Earth or Vulcan, but as long as those worlds are recognized as Federation members, so are their ships, especially in foreign (non-Federation) affairs.
That's if you parse "Federation ship" to mean that. The whole point here is that that need not be the way it was parsed in "Relics". What you are saying is only one assumption of what it might mean. Clearly, it's the one you favor, but that doesn't mean it's the only reasonable way to read it.
It actually is the only reasonable way to read it, otherwise you're talking about non-Federation ships or unknown/outlaw ships that aren't registered anywhere.
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Old July 15 2014, 07:37 AM   #299
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Once again, that's splitting hairs because a ship that comes from the Federation or operates under the authority of a single Federation member world/agency is still a Federation ship. You can be more specific by saying that it's from Earth or Vulcan, but as long as those worlds are recognized as Federation members, so are their ships, especially in foreign (non-Federation) affairs.
That's if you parse "Federation ship" to mean that. The whole point here is that that need not be the way it was parsed in "Relics". What you are saying is only one assumption of what it might mean. Clearly, it's the one you favor, but that doesn't mean it's the only reasonable way to read it.
It actually is the only reasonable way to read it, otherwise you're talking about non-Federation ships or unknown/outlaw ships that aren't registered anywhere.
Obviously, that's your opinion, and just as obviously, not everybody here agrees.
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Old July 15 2014, 07:39 AM   #300
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Most ships like that might not have a "bridge" as oppose to a control room, or pilots chair.

Also in the two instances where the numbers for Enterprises come up, firstly the Computer seems rather clever. Assuming there was a non-Federation ship, or not Starfleet ship named Enterprise, it was likely no longer around by the time the NCC-1701 was commissioned. The computer was clever enough to pick up on Scotty wanting to see a Federation ship named Enterprise, without going to said one of the aircraft carriers named Enterprise. So we can assume the computer is clever enough to exclude things that don't logically match the questions from a given person...to a degree,

The other instance was Temporal Investigations. They would of course assume it was a Federation ship named Enterprise since Sisko saw it on Defiant's viewscreen and he had not mentioned being in a ocean or planet of any kind. However the NX-01 was not considered at all (mindful of course that that series would not exist for several more years at that point). Perhaps they could tell it would be a Federation ship just by how Sisko said it. Though we did not actually hear that part of the conversion. We got the flashback of it happening, then after the break the investigators questioning which Enterprise it was, saying there had been 5...6. The NX-01 is not on their minds, nor is the ring ship Enterprise. So we can assume there are some logical bounds for what is usually considered when one wants to see the Enterprise or when one talks about an Enterprise. But there are always possibilities...as well as things not said. Temporal Investigations missed at least one spaceship, more than likely two that were named Enterprise, probably because stuff happens to starships named Enterprise, but no one talks about Archer's ship like they talk about ships with a registry of NCC-1701.

Thus, an opening. Not for anything grand, or even anything important. Just an opening for something named Enterprise between 2161 and 2244. There isn't much in the away of opening after that, though again there could be civilian ships or craft that use the name Enterprise that would not be considered Federation ships, They would also be more or less unimportant. Like a sail boat in a marina in Richmond named Enterprise or a planetary survey ship named Enterprise registered on Alpha Centauri. No one would pay them any mind in most history text.
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