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Old July 10 2014, 02:48 AM   #46
Xerxes1979
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Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
wulfio wrote: View Post
The Excelsior would not have been in Klingon space. Therefor, If a shockwave originating from a lunar object sends out a shock wave of that magnitude 100`s of light years away,
What magnitude, exactly? We know it was a subspace shockwave. And it seemed to do relatively little to the Excelsior, really, except bounce it around a bit. Maybe the reason for the severity of its interaction with Excelsior was because the ship had propulsion equipment that relied on subspace manipulations, and the wave was damaging ships, frotzing subspace radio, and similarly screwing up other subspace equipment for 100s of light years, but having relatively little effect on the actual material of planets or even people.
I believe such waves interact with objects in real space as well as subspace. The Excelsior was not at warp at the time. For some reason the ship was traveling at full impulse in deep space(which is redicoulus and causes relativity problems). It is possible that traveling at impulse utilizes a low strength warp field to reduce the mass of the vessel. But if this is true why did Sulu order shields up? Shields are high strength subspace fields measured in cochranes. How could ramping up two colliding fields reduce damage? Why not power down all subspace fields before impact?

The shockwave must have imparted a force to the exterior hull otherwise it would have just past through the hull on its way to gut the minor interior subsystems.

Subspace shockwaves are referenced in the Q and the Grey but I have not watched that in a long time so perhaps a Voyager fan can educate me.
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Old July 10 2014, 04:12 PM   #47
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Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
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An in-universe explanation I think that is implied is that Quonos was doomed if Federation assistance wasn't rendered, but the Kitomer Accords provided for that.


The real question is why does the Federation keep saving the Klingons, only to have them forget a few years later, and become the UFP's enemies again.
An answer would be that the Federation didn't render assistance to the Klingons and that the Khitomer Accords was really nothing more than a truce between the Federation and the Empire.

I don't think an actual alliance between the Federation and Klingons came about until after the Narendra III incident, but both sides reserved the right to withdraw from the Accords.

I suppose that could in fact be the case, as it is unclear (canonically) if the UFP did anything to assist the Klingons. But it does make sense to me at least, that the UFP would have done something to help the Klingons recover.

The Feds will pretty much any planet (so long as it is within the prime directive) that was in a similar situation, if assistance is asked.

It doesn't make sense to me to simply sign a peace treaty with no other action on the part of the Feds, just because Praxis blew up. The Feds were a defensive force, and although there were some "hawks" advocating for bringing the Klingons "to their knees," that wasn't the mainstream ideology of the Federation and I don't think the UFP would have invaded the Klingon Empire, even without the Khitomer Accords. THat's what implied to me that the Feds provided some form of help to the KLingons, along with signing a peace treaty.
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Old July 10 2014, 07:39 PM   #48
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Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
An in-universe explanation I think that is implied is that Quonos was doomed if Federation assistance wasn't rendered, but the Kitomer Accords provided for that.


The real question is why does the Federation keep saving the Klingons, only to have them forget a few years later, and become the UFP's enemies again.
An answer would be that the Federation didn't render assistance to the Klingons and that the Khitomer Accords was really nothing more than a truce between the Federation and the Empire.

I don't think an actual alliance between the Federation and Klingons came about until after the Narendra III incident, but both sides reserved the right to withdraw from the Accords.

I suppose that could in fact be the case, as it is unclear (canonically) if the UFP did anything to assist the Klingons. But it does make sense to me at least, that the UFP would have done something to help the Klingons recover.

The Feds will pretty much any planet (so long as it is within the prime directive) that was in a similar situation, if assistance is asked.

It doesn't make sense to me to simply sign a peace treaty with no other action on the part of the Feds, just because Praxis blew up. The Feds were a defensive force, and although there were some "hawks" advocating for bringing the Klingons "to their knees," that wasn't the mainstream ideology of the Federation and I don't think the UFP would have invaded the Klingon Empire, even without the Khitomer Accords. THat's what implied to me that the Feds provided some form of help to the KLingons, along with signing a peace treaty.
One thing to consider though, is that the Klingons may not have wanted the Federation's help and may even have resented the very notion of it. All they may have needed was a time out to repair Qo'noS on their own.
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Old July 11 2014, 08:47 AM   #49
grendelsbayne
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Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
An answer would be that the Federation didn't render assistance to the Klingons and that the Khitomer Accords was really nothing more than a truce between the Federation and the Empire.

I don't think an actual alliance between the Federation and Klingons came about until after the Narendra III incident, but both sides reserved the right to withdraw from the Accords.

I suppose that could in fact be the case, as it is unclear (canonically) if the UFP did anything to assist the Klingons. But it does make sense to me at least, that the UFP would have done something to help the Klingons recover.

The Feds will pretty much any planet (so long as it is within the prime directive) that was in a similar situation, if assistance is asked.

It doesn't make sense to me to simply sign a peace treaty with no other action on the part of the Feds, just because Praxis blew up. The Feds were a defensive force, and although there were some "hawks" advocating for bringing the Klingons "to their knees," that wasn't the mainstream ideology of the Federation and I don't think the UFP would have invaded the Klingon Empire, even without the Khitomer Accords. THat's what implied to me that the Feds provided some form of help to the KLingons, along with signing a peace treaty.
One thing to consider though, is that the Klingons may not have wanted the Federation's help and may even have resented the very notion of it. All they may have needed was a time out to repair Qo'noS on their own.
Another thing to remember is that the Klingons distrusted the Federation even more than the other way around. Just because we know the Federation almost certainly wouldn't invade just because they could, doesn't mean the Klingons would allow themselves to believe that and trust in that enough to ramp down their military without an ironclad treaty on the table.
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Old July 11 2014, 09:07 AM   #50
C.E. Evans
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Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
TheSubCommander wrote: View Post


I suppose that could in fact be the case, as it is unclear (canonically) if the UFP did anything to assist the Klingons. But it does make sense to me at least, that the UFP would have done something to help the Klingons recover.

The Feds will pretty much any planet (so long as it is within the prime directive) that was in a similar situation, if assistance is asked.

It doesn't make sense to me to simply sign a peace treaty with no other action on the part of the Feds, just because Praxis blew up. The Feds were a defensive force, and although there were some "hawks" advocating for bringing the Klingons "to their knees," that wasn't the mainstream ideology of the Federation and I don't think the UFP would have invaded the Klingon Empire, even without the Khitomer Accords. THat's what implied to me that the Feds provided some form of help to the KLingons, along with signing a peace treaty.
One thing to consider though, is that the Klingons may not have wanted the Federation's help and may even have resented the very notion of it. All they may have needed was a time out to repair Qo'noS on their own.
Another thing to remember is that the Klingons distrusted the Federation even more than the other way around.
Well, that's one of the reasons why the Klingons would not have wanted the Federation's help. Pride and honor would be another.
Just because we know the Federation almost certainly wouldn't invade just because they could, doesn't mean the Klingons would allow themselves to believe that and trust in that enough to ramp down their military without an ironclad treaty on the table.
It's possible that the Romulans, however, took advantage of the Klingons while they were rebuilding Qo'noS and their economy, eventually culminating in the Romulans attacking Klingon colonies (including Narendra III and Khitomer itself) around the 2340s.
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Old July 11 2014, 11:11 AM   #51
Robert Comsol
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Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
It's possible that the Romulans, however, took advantage of the Klingons while they were rebuilding Qo'noS and their economy, eventually culminating in the Romulans attacking Klingon colonies (including Narendra III and Khitomer itself) around the 2340s.
Which reminds me to ask (don't remember it this moment).

Was the Romulan attack on Khitomer an open one or was it a stealth attack?

Although we know little (or not enough) about the attack on Narendra III, it appeared to me to have been some kind of stealth attack, where the Romulans might have tried to frame the Federation for it (explaining the resulting Klingon-Federation war in the alternate reality of "Yesterday's Enterprise").

Had the Romulans attacked Khitomer first and openly, it should have been easy to identify the Romulans as the prime suspect for Narendra III.

But if the returning Enterprise-C foiled this plan at Narendra III, the Romulans might have opted for open aggression regarding Khitomer.

Bob
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Old July 11 2014, 01:31 PM   #52
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Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

Well, the Romulan Ambassador was involved with the plot with Admiral Cartwright and General Chang, but the Romulan government might claim he acted independently and without their approval. I doubt the Romulans would worry about losing a few ambassadors here or there.

And I think the Romulans and Klingons actually hated each other much more than the Klingons and the Federation. The Klingons and Federation fought many battles, but it was part of doing business rather than any personal grudge as a people. Although, you could argue that the Romulans and Klingons were allies, I think they were more like co-beligerents using the advantage of technological exchange against their mutual enemy rather than allies. It would make more sense for the Klingons to be able to put aside any percieved gruge against the Federation than the Romulans, I think.

What I can never understand would be why the Federation stabbed the Klingons in the back to help their enemy, but that's a whole other topic.
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Old July 11 2014, 01:41 PM   #53
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Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

Memory Alpha puts the Khitomer massacre at 2346, two years after Narendra III. So it could conceivably have been retaliation / follow up for the earlier failure.
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Old July 11 2014, 09:54 PM   #54
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Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

Thanks. But unless I'm mistaken the Klingons learned (in our reality) that the Romulans had attacked them at Narendra III and did so again two years later at Khitomer.

Why didn't they retaliate? Was the influence of the Duras family that strong or were the Klingons too weak to start a war?

Interesting that in both cases a Starfleet ship was in the vicinity, first the Enterprise-C and later the Intrepid.

Bob
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Old July 11 2014, 10:09 PM   #55
C.E. Evans
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Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Thanks. But unless I'm mistaken the Klingons learned (in our reality) that the Romulans had attacked them at Narendra III and did so again two years later at Khitomer.

Why didn't they retaliate? Was the influence of the Duras family that strong or were the Klingons too weak to start a war?
Personally, I think it was a combination of both. But I think once Qo'noS was stabilized, the Klingons immediately started to divert their resources back towards their military so that they were once again a force to be reckoned with by the time TNG began.
Interesting that in both cases a Starfleet ship was in the vicinity, first the Enterprise-C and later the Intrepid.
If there was a "Klingon Neutral Zone," a provision of the Khitomer Accords might have called for the dismantling of it, enabling Federation starships access into sectors near Klingon territory they previously didn't have access to.
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Old July 12 2014, 05:29 AM   #56
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Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

I do like the theory that what we see of Quo'nos in TNG was pretty much all that is left, with only the 'center of government' perhaps being maintained by some technology unexplained while the rest of the planet (which we don't ever get to see in TNG) lies in desolation and ruin.

But on the other hand, I also like the theory that TNG Quo'nos is a different planet to TOS Quo'nos, accounting (for example) why it seems to take longer to get there compared to in ENT.

Either theory works for me.
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Old July 12 2014, 08:37 AM   #57
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Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
TheSubCommander wrote: View Post


I suppose that could in fact be the case, as it is unclear (canonically) if the UFP did anything to assist the Klingons. But it does make sense to me at least, that the UFP would have done something to help the Klingons recover.

The Feds will pretty much any planet (so long as it is within the prime directive) that was in a similar situation, if assistance is asked.

It doesn't make sense to me to simply sign a peace treaty with no other action on the part of the Feds, just because Praxis blew up. The Feds were a defensive force, and although there were some "hawks" advocating for bringing the Klingons "to their knees," that wasn't the mainstream ideology of the Federation and I don't think the UFP would have invaded the Klingon Empire, even without the Khitomer Accords. THat's what implied to me that the Feds provided some form of help to the KLingons, along with signing a peace treaty.
One thing to consider though, is that the Klingons may not have wanted the Federation's help and may even have resented the very notion of it. All they may have needed was a time out to repair Qo'noS on their own.
Another thing to remember is that the Klingons distrusted the Federation even more than the other way around. Just because we know the Federation almost certainly wouldn't invade just because they could, doesn't mean the Klingons would allow themselves to believe that and trust in that enough to ramp down their military without an ironclad treaty on the table.

Those are two valid points, however, if faced with extinction, in my view, the Klingons would make certain "acceptable" compromises. It also must be remembered that the Klingons from at least the 22nd century on, valued the warrior caste above all others, and unless it was weaponry or ship advancements, the Klingons didn't seem to value scientific research all that much. If faced with the prospect of cleaning up Quonos to make it habitable again, I think it is reasonable to assume the top Federation scientists with its multitude of races working together, far outclass the Klingon Empire's scientists. Bottom line, it may hurt Klingon pride to ask for help from the Feds, and they may in fact NOT ask for it, but if the Feds offered first, I don't see the Klingons turning it down, either.

Lance wrote: View Post
I do like the theory that what we see of Quo'nos in TNG was pretty much all that is left, with only the 'center of government' perhaps being maintained by some technology unexplained while the rest of the planet (which we don't ever get to see in TNG) lies in desolation and ruin.

But on the other hand, I also like the theory that TNG Quo'nos is a different planet to TOS Quo'nos, accounting (for example) why it seems to take longer to get there compared to in ENT.

Either theory works for me.
You know, I think before it was actually ret-conned in TUC that Qu'o'nos is the name of the Klingon Home world (if I am not mistaken), in the TNG episode Heart of Glory, isn't the home world referred to as "Kling?"

Maybe Qu'o'nos is basically just a "capital" planet by the TNG era, but most Klingons now live off world, and maybe there is a "co-home world" named Kling. Not all that different from the Roman Empire when it was split into two with dual capitals: Rome & Constantinople?
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Old July 12 2014, 01:00 PM   #58
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Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

I think subspace is real. But, I interpret it as being a different dimension--perhaps a timeless one--than the one in which we live.

The late great Cambridge University researcher Thomas Lethbridge suggested that in another dimension--say, the 5th dimension--there was no "time" measurement. He theorized that, there, one could travel anywhere almost instantly.

If a vessel could jump to that dimension, it could travel vast distances, or perhaps even travel through time, and then drop back into our dimension. It would seem to appear there as if out of nowhere.

I think the Philadelphia Experiment did that, appearing and disappearing in a greenish fog. The "Pegasus" episode in TNG reminds me of it.
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Old July 12 2014, 01:09 PM   #59
C.E. Evans
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Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
One thing to consider though, is that the Klingons may not have wanted the Federation's help and may even have resented the very notion of it. All they may have needed was a time out to repair Qo'noS on their own.
Another thing to remember is that the Klingons distrusted the Federation even more than the other way around. Just because we know the Federation almost certainly wouldn't invade just because they could, doesn't mean the Klingons would allow themselves to believe that and trust in that enough to ramp down their military without an ironclad treaty on the table.

Those are two valid points, however, if faced with extinction, in my view, the Klingons would make certain "acceptable" compromises. It also must be remembered that the Klingons from at least the 22nd century on, valued the warrior caste above all others, and unless it was weaponry or ship advancements, the Klingons didn't seem to value scientific research all that much. If faced with the prospect of cleaning up Quonos to make it habitable again, I think it is reasonable to assume the top Federation scientists with its multitude of races working together, far outclass the Klingon Empire's scientists. Bottom line, it may hurt Klingon pride to ask for help from the Feds, and they may in fact NOT ask for it, but if the Feds offered first, I don't see the Klingons turning it down, either.
I think if it was a case that if the Klingons couldn't save Qo'noS on their own, yeah, they would take Federation assistance. But I think the Klingons are, like the Ferengi, generally technologically equal (but not identical) to the Federation and did possess the means to save themselves (the warriors may rule, but it was the unsung scientists and engineers that really saved the Empire).
Lance wrote: View Post
I do like the theory that what we see of Quo'nos in TNG was pretty much all that is left, with only the 'center of government' perhaps being maintained by some technology unexplained while the rest of the planet (which we don't ever get to see in TNG) lies in desolation and ruin.

But on the other hand, I also like the theory that TNG Quo'nos is a different planet to TOS Quo'nos, accounting (for example) why it seems to take longer to get there compared to in ENT.

Either theory works for me.
You know, I think before it was actually ret-conned in TUC that Qu'o'nos is the name of the Klingon Home world (if I am not mistaken), in the TNG episode Heart of Glory, isn't the home world referred to as "Kling?"

Maybe Qu'o'nos is basically just a "capital" planet by the TNG era, but most Klingons now live off world, and maybe there is a "co-home world" named Kling. Not all that different from the Roman Empire when it was split into two with dual capitals: Rome & Constantinople?
"Kling" could even be just an alternate name for Qo'noS like "Terra" is for Earth, or it could be a place on Qo'noS.
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Old July 12 2014, 05:24 PM   #60
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Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

I have even heard Kazh as a name for the homeworld. QoNos is the St. Petersburg, or vice versa--to Moscow.
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