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Old July 11 2014, 08:14 PM   #16
varek
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Re: Naming the Space Shuttle Enterprise

Christopher, who is Jack Marsh? How long was he remembered in his office, after he left?
Probably not 50 years later!
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Old July 11 2014, 08:41 PM   #17
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Re: Naming the Space Shuttle Enterprise

I suppose he's this fellow:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Otho_Marsh,_Jr.

He went on to become Secretary of the Army in the Reagan Administration, and was a confidant of Vice President Cheney. He's been a professor at several universities, and there's an institute named after him. So I'd say he hasn't been forgotten.

And... it's only been 38 years since these memos were issued.
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Old July 11 2014, 09:41 PM   #18
varek
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Re: Naming the Space Shuttle Enterprise

Christopher wrote: View Post
I suppose he's this fellow:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Otho_Marsh,_Jr.

He went on to become Secretary of the Army in the Reagan Administration, and was a confidant of Vice President Cheney. He's been a professor at several universities, and there's an institute named after him. So I'd say he hasn't been forgotten.

And... it's only been 38 years since these memos were issued.
As you say, he does have some impressive credentials. But, in all honesty, I had never heard of him before.
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Old July 11 2014, 11:38 PM   #19
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Re: Naming the Space Shuttle Enterprise

I wonder if the selection may have averted the Columbia disaster--it would have been Enterprise that blew up over Texas then.

I think folks might have wanted to bring it out of service a bit earlier. The orbiter that became named Columbia was a bit heavy to make it to ISS.
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Old July 12 2014, 12:55 AM   #20
BillJ
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Re: Naming the Space Shuttle Enterprise

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post

Somehow I feel very certain that neither Greg Jein or Franz Joseph Schnaubelt signed that petition...

However, I wouldn't be suprised if Gene Roddenberry, Matt Jefferies and Bob Justman supported the petition.
What purpose does this comment serve? Other than grinding an axe that you consistently grind over and over.
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Old July 12 2014, 01:33 AM   #21
Maurice
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Re: Naming the Space Shuttle Enterprise

That poor smiley is gonna get worn out.
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Old July 12 2014, 01:35 AM   #22
Maurice
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Re: Naming the Space Shuttle Enterprise

Christopher wrote: View Post
I suppose he's this fellow:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Otho_Marsh,_Jr.

He went on to become Secretary of the Army in the Reagan Administration, and was a confidant of Vice President Cheney. He's been a professor at several universities, and there's an institute named after him. So I'd say he hasn't been forgotten.

And... it's only been 38 years since these memos were issued.
You broke the link by getting the . outside the URL tags.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Otho_Marsh,_Jr.
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Old July 12 2014, 01:53 AM   #23
diankra
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Re: Naming the Space Shuttle Enterprise

OV-101 was never going to make the first orbital flight: it was a prototype which would need heavy refitting (as it was only fitted with the systems needed for the ALT tests) before it could be flown to for orbit, which would take far too long (it would take less time to include the lessons learnt in the ALT tests in later orbiters which were still half-built, such as OV-102).

In that sense, it was a definite pyrhirric victory by the Trek fans; if OV-101 had been left as Constitution, maybe 102 would have been Enterprise rather than Columbia.
Acc. the original plan (the two Heppenheimer/Smithsonian books on Development of the Space Shuttle give chapter and verse and memos and some insomnia cure on this) Enterprise was to have been refitted to enter service as the second or third operational space-worthy orbiter; then it was spotted that it would be cheaper and quicker to refit STA-99, originally intended as a structural test article, into an actual flight worthy orbiter (OV-99, Challenger).
Hence Enterprise's refit got knock back to follow the first few 'production line' orbiters, as fifth or sixth at earliest. But then the funding dried up after two production line orbiters (Discovery and Atlantis) and a full set of spare parts sneaked through the budget as such (eventually put together as Endeavour), so Enterprise stayed on the ground.
Bluntly, as an overweight prototype, it was probably always going to be cheaper in the long term to build a new one than refit OV-101. Columbia was never sent to the ISS because she was too heavy to get there while still carrying a decent cargo (though she was going there on the next mission that didn't happen).
Enterprise was even heavier, and that couldn't be changed without effectively destroying her and rebuilding from scratch.

Orbiter base weight around 1985, for what it's worth, were:
Enterprise: 160,000 pounds (after refit for orbit)
Columbia: 158,000 pounds
Challenger: 155,000 pounds
Discovery & Atlantis: 151,000 pounds.
Given how much it costs to get each pound into orbit, you can see why after a couple of launches it would be cheaper to build an new Discovery/Atlantis production orbiter than refit Enterprise for orbit.
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Old July 12 2014, 02:39 AM   #24
Christopher
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Re: Naming the Space Shuttle Enterprise

Maurice wrote: View Post
You broke the link by getting the . outside the URL tags.
I think the board broke the link, since I just copied and pasted it directly and let the board automatically turn it into a link. I think the board software has had problems before with links that end in punctuation marks.


diankra wrote: View Post
Enterprise was even heavier, and that couldn't be changed without effectively destroying her and rebuilding from scratch.
Well, gee, that worked for at least one later Enterprise...
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Old July 12 2014, 03:06 AM   #25
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Re: Naming the Space Shuttle Enterprise

SchwEnt wrote: View Post
Sure it's easy to wish that the Enterprise shuttle became the first to launch into space (Columbia).

But if that first shuttle into space had been named Enterprise, suppose that vehicle and history all remained the same except for the naming.

Today we'd be remembering the Enterprise disaster that killed seven astronauts in 2003.

Be careful what you wish for.
^Every time I see the "too bad the Enterprise never went into space" conversation come up, my mind goes this way. The fact it could have been one of the two shuttle disasters always comes to my mind. I'm happy it never had the chance to...
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Old July 12 2014, 07:30 AM   #26
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Re: Naming the Space Shuttle Enterprise

BillJ wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Personally I've long regretted that the Trek fans jumped the gun. Sure, we got a shuttle named Enterprise, but it was just the prototype and never actually flew into space. We should've held out for the second one.
I agree. Looking back, it seems like a rather hollow victory.

Not really, considering the first two fully functional shuttles, Columbia and Challenger were destroyed!

At least the Enterprise survives in NYC!
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Old July 12 2014, 05:22 PM   #27
publiusr
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Re: Naming the Space Shuttle Enterprise

Christopher wrote: View Post


diankra wrote: View Post
Enterprise was even heavier, and that couldn't be changed without effectively destroying her and rebuilding from scratch.
Well, gee, that worked for at least one later Enterprise...
Ha! Ha!
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