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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old July 9 2014, 12:36 AM   #16
JirinPanthosa
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

If Star Trek has showed us one thing about Klingon honor it's that Worf is the only Klingon in the galaxy who actually does care about it. *Maybe* Martok.

Why would the Klingons find it dishonorable for him to serve in Starfleet? He doesn't owe his people something just because he comes from the same species. And he didn't go to the homeworld to demand something, he went there to defend himself from a legal action carried out against him. The Klingons didn't think he'd show up, but when he did they were forced into a legal corner where their legal system demanded hearing his challenge. And Gowron didn't restore his honor on a whim, he restored it in exchange for a fleet of ships.

And there's more to loyalty and integrity than automatically picking a side and staying with it regardless of their actions. Blind loyalty is a form of cowardice. At every point Worf went with the side that reflected his principles the best.

Just because the US makes you renounce your other citizenships when you get it doesn't mean the Federation or Klingons work that way. Worf never violated any social contract he entered with either the Federation or Klingons.
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Old July 9 2014, 01:24 AM   #17
Salinga
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

I always found the definition of honor in the Klingon culture pretty hollow, because it is a definition which lacks empathy and truth. It is "honor" how psychopathic/narcissistic personalities would define it.
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Old July 9 2014, 03:55 AM   #18
Armored Saint
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

In A Matter of Honour, the Klingon honor was clearly stated as an individual matter. KLAG: A Klingon is his work, not his family. That is the way of things. But after that, Klingon honor had been developped as the object of political manipulations based on family reputations.

Worf began to understood that misuse of honor some years before he killed Gowron.
GOWRON: Think about what you are doing. If you turn your back on me now, for as long as I live, you will not be welcome anywhere in the Klingon Empire. Your family will be removed from the High Council, your lands seized, and your House stripped of its titles. You will have nothing.
WORF: Except my honour.

Plus, Kahless' legends are based on his own exploit. Kahless was the guy who fought alone.

(And if you find odd the conception of honor, take a look of what I could have been with Phase II. People who commit suicide because they had their ass kicked. http://pages.videotron.com/startrk/s.../kitumba1.html)

Worf may be a Klingon biologically, but he was essentially a foreigner. I presume he was a citizen of the Federation.
He was born into Klingon Empire and Klingonese was is first language. We can also suppose Klingon citizenship is based on the right of blood. So yeah, Worf had a double citizenship.

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Just because the US makes you renounce your other citizenships when you get it doesn't mean the Federation or Klingons work that way. Worf never violated any social contract he entered with either the Federation or Klingons.
I have Greek citizenship by my mother despite I'm born in Canada. But I suppose I'm dishonorable because I didn't go in Greece to do my military service.
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Old July 9 2014, 04:36 AM   #19
the praetor
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

It must be easy for Worf to make moral grandstanding statements about honor while living comfortably within the Federation. The Federation provided a safe and stable place for Worf to moralize about honor.

In the “Redemption” eps, Worf referred to the Klingons as “my people”. Those were the words he used.

If Worf wanted to make a positive (from his perspective) difference in the lives and ways of his “people”, then why didn’t he join his “people”, live among them, preach to them, lead them to a more honorable way. Endure the rough and tumble politics of Klingon society. See how far his “honorable” approach takes him.

Don’t just jump into Klingon affairs whenever it is convenient for him, as he did during the “Redemption” eps; and then bail out when it suited him. What was so honorable about what he did in “Redemption“?
 
What does Klingon honor mean anyway? I don’t know exactly.

The Klingons have been portrayed as a xenophobic society. If the Klingons are Worf’s “people” and the Klingons consider Worf one of their own, why wouldn’t Klingon society expect one of their own to serve within the society? Wouldn’t that be the honorable thing to do? I am just trying to interpret how the show has portrayed the Klingons.

I remember during the ep, a number of members of the high council switched their support to the Duras faction because they didn’t like the fact that Picard picked Gowron over Toral. Not so much that Picard picked Gowron, but that a foreigner did the choosing. Whether as a viewer, you liked that or not, it did make sense.

Worf has had every opportunity to quit Starfleet and to join the empire to serve his people. But he did not do that. Worf has been serving aliens (Fed) who could at any time be enemies of the Klingons. It seems logical to me that the Klingons would view Worf’s serving in Starfleet as a dishonor.

When Worf butted into Klingon affairs in “Redemption”, he essentially was advancing Federation interests. Sure it happened to coincide with Gowron’s interest. But I’m sure the Duras faction and many other ordinary Klingons viewed Worf as a traitorous and dishonorable Klingon who served alien foreign (Federation) interests.
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Old July 9 2014, 04:53 AM   #20
Ithekro
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

Again, "Redemption" as a story is not in a vacuum. There are other stories tied to it that increase the scale and perception of events.
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Old July 9 2014, 04:59 AM   #21
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

the praetor wrote: View Post

I remember during the ep, a number of members of the high council switched their support to the Duras faction because they didn’t like the fact that Picard picked Gowron over Toral. Not so much that Picard picked Gowron, but that a foreigner did the choosing. Whether as a viewer, you liked that or not, it did make sense.
Or they were concerned their own connections to the Romulans would be uncovered if Gowron ascended the throne. There was no indication that they were willingly going to follow Gowron to begin with. Just that the guy they backed was skewered by Worf.
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Old July 9 2014, 05:30 AM   #22
Ithekro
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

Kurn was originally going to assassinate Gowron and fight the Duras himself. Worf, as the older brother, put his weight into the argument to get Kurn to side with Gowron in an effort to restore his family name and honor.

The reason Worf is even present is because it is Picard's duty to select the next chancellor of the High Council under Klingon Law in a direct effort by K'mpec to evade some of the corruption within Klingon politics that could allow someone using a dishonorable method of assassination such as poison to become the chancellor. Assassination via combat is permitted, but methods that hide one's identity such as poison are not. Though in truth, we do know know who poisoned K'mpec. It could have been Gowron, though the implication was that it was Duras.

Worf uses the opportunty to correct the removal of his house's titles and honor by supporting Gowron, who is already the defacto leader of the empire due to there being no legitimate bids for the seat. It seems that women can't serve on the council at this point in the Empire's history, and Duras' son is too young and without victories to his name.

K'mpec also would not have wished for the Empire to side with Romulas, as the Romulans are seen as dishonorable is many circles of the Empire. The Federation is seen as weak, with soft starfleet officers that serve on toys with soft interiors and luxury. Soft and weak, but not dishonorable.

When Starfleet's blockade of the Romulan supplies proves that the Romulans are supplying the Duras sisters, the question is, "was the loss of the Duras caused by the lack of resupply, or by the other houses leaving them due to their exposed connection to the Romulans?"

The House of Duras was powerful, and probably corrupt. But that power held sway even if the laws says that Gowron was to be the new leader. Instead of fight a Civil War and have the Romulans backing it, the Duras sisters could have waited until Duras' boy was older and trained with a blade. Then challenge Gowron for the leadership. Kill him and the Empire would belong to the House of Duras, though possibly not controllably by the sisters.

Worf, in backing Gowron, has to follow though to see that his bid to get his family name restored (partly for his brother). Thus he stays with the Empire for the duration of the Civil War. After it ends, his part in the deal with Gowron has ended. Kurn can now operate the reestablished House of Mogh as per normal within the Empire, and Worf can go back to his job as a Starfleet officer.

This more or less holds save for bumps, like the return of Kahless. But Worf is stripped again during the Klingon-Cardasssian War due to siding against the Empire. His is probably rightly so by Klingon law, as Worf went against the good of the Empire and actively attacked other Klingons in combat. It would not be until the eve of the Dominion War when Worf regained his honor via the end of the hostilities between the Federation and Klingon Empire, and the impression he made on General Martok against the Dominion.
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Old July 9 2014, 10:18 AM   #23
MacLeod
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

the praetor wrote: View Post
It must be easy for Worf to make moral grandstanding statements about honor while living comfortably within the Federation. The Federation provided a safe and stable place for Worf to moralize about honor.

In the “Redemption” eps, Worf referred to the Klingons as “my people”. Those were the words he used.

If Worf wanted to make a positive (from his perspective) difference in the lives and ways of his “people”, then why didn’t he join his “people”, live among them, preach to them, lead them to a more honorable way. Endure the rough and tumble politics of Klingon society. See how far his “honorable” approach takes him.

Don’t just jump into Klingon affairs whenever it is convenient for him, as he did during the “Redemption” eps; and then bail out when it suited him. What was so honorable about what he did in “Redemption“?
 
What does Klingon honor mean anyway? I don’t know exactly.

The Klingons have been portrayed as a xenophobic society. If the Klingons are Worf’s “people” and the Klingons consider Worf one of their own, why wouldn’t Klingon society expect one of their own to serve within the society? Wouldn’t that be the honorable thing to do? I am just trying to interpret how the show has portrayed the Klingons.

I remember during the ep, a number of members of the high council switched their support to the Duras faction because they didn’t like the fact that Picard picked Gowron over Toral. Not so much that Picard picked Gowron, but that a foreigner did the choosing. Whether as a viewer, you liked that or not, it did make sense.

Worf has had every opportunity to quit Starfleet and to join the empire to serve his people. But he did not do that. Worf has been serving aliens (Fed) who could at any time be enemies of the Klingons. It seems logical to me that the Klingons would view Worf’s serving in Starfleet as a dishonor.

When Worf butted into Klingon affairs in “Redemption”, he essentially was advancing Federation interests. Sure it happened to coincide with Gowron’s interest. But I’m sure the Duras faction and many other ordinary Klingons viewed Worf as a traitorous and dishonorable Klingon who served alien foreign (Federation) interests.
So are saying it would be dishonourable for say an American to serve in the UK's Royal Air Force like some did during WWII (before the US entry into the war)?

Worf didn't butt into Klingon Affair's, it was the High Council's choice to accuse Worf's father of treason in "Sins of the Father", they didn't expect him to challange the accusation. So it was the High Council who essentiually invited Worf into the whole affair.

The traitors where the Duras faction, Duras's father aided the Romulan's in their attack upon Khitomer, Duras's family ignitated a civil war, worked with the Romulans against the legitmate Chancellor. Duras possible had K'mpec asscinated.

Ezri Dax summed the Klingon Empire

Dax: I think that the situation with Gowron is a symptom of a bigger problem. The Klingon Empire is dying; and I think it deserves to die. I tend to look at the Empire with a little more skepticism than Curzon and Jadzia did. I see a society that is in deep denial about itself. We're talking about a warrior culture that prides itself on maintaining centuries-old traditions of honor and integrity. But in reality, it's willing to accept corruption at the highest levels.

Worf
: You are overstating your case.

Dax:
Am I? Who was the last leader of the High Council that you respected? Has there even been one? And how many times have you had to cover up the crimes of Klingon leaders because you were told that it was for the good of the Empire? I... I know this sounds harsh, but the truth is, you have been willing to accept a government that you know is corrupt. Gowron's just the latest example. Worf, you are the most honorable and decent man that I've ever met. And if *you* are willing to tolerate men like Gowron, then what hope is there for the Empire?
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Old July 9 2014, 03:10 PM   #24
grendelsbayne
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

the praetor wrote: View Post
What does Klingon honor mean anyway? I don’t know exactly.

The Klingons have been portrayed as a xenophobic society. If the Klingons are Worf’s “people” and the Klingons consider Worf one of their own, why wouldn’t Klingon society expect one of their own to serve within the society? Wouldn’t that be the honorable thing to do? I am just trying to interpret how the show has portrayed the Klingons.
You keep saying this, but I, for one, don't see it. What was so extraordinarily 'xenophobic' about the Empire? They were proud and exceedingly arrogant and they had a particular hatred for certain species (especially tribbles and Romulans), but I never saw any reason to believe that a Klingon could be 'dishonored' just by associating with aliens. I can think of several examples that would seem to prove that they wouldn't care in the slightest, such as Worf, Alexander, Curzon, Jadzia, Kang's (or was it Kor?) respect for Capt. Kirk, Chang's respect for Kirk. Hell, in STVI it's the daughter of the Klingon High Chancellor who's standing there lecturing the crew of a Federation starship on tolerance.

Worf has had every opportunity to quit Starfleet and to join the empire to serve his people. But he did not do that. Worf has been serving aliens (Fed) who could at any time be enemies of the Klingons. It seems logical to me that the Klingons would view Worf’s serving in Starfleet as a dishonor.
As explained above, I don't see anything even remotely logical about it.
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Old July 10 2014, 12:08 AM   #25
varek
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

Klingons' sense of honor seems to be related to personal insults and family feuds. They remind me, in a way, of the Spanish noblemen, who were always dueling with each other over imagined slights to their name. (Remember the movie El Cid?)

Worf seems torn between serving the Klingon Empire and the Federation. But, overall, I think his greatest loyalty was to the truth, regardless of the cost.

Worf is a great man of honor, whom one would always be glad to consider a friend and ally.
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Old July 10 2014, 01:54 AM   #26
Armored Saint
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
I can think of several examples that would seem to prove that they wouldn't care in the slightest, such as Worf, Alexander, Curzon, Jadzia, Kang's (or was it Kor?) respect for Capt. Kirk, Chang's respect for Kirk. Hell, in STVI it's the daughter of the Klingon High Chancellor who's standing there lecturing the crew of a Federation starship on tolerance.
You can also add Riker on the IKS Pagh to the list. It turned bad because Captain Kargan had a Pakled' brain, but Riker basically earned the respect of much of the crew quite easily.
You keep saying this, but I, for one, don't see it. What was so extraordinarily 'xenophobic' about the Empire? They were proud and exceedingly arrogant and they had a particular hatred for certain species (especially tribbles and Romulans), but I never saw any reason to believe that a Klingon could be 'dishonored' just by associating with aliens.
If the Empire were so xenophobic, the UFP wouldn't be their allied. Vulcans tend to be closed on themselves as society, but it doesn't mean they're strongly xenophobic.

In The Trouble with Tribbles we can ear racist comments by Korax, but Chekov didn't seem so more open about the Klingons. Both of them were trained to see the other race as the enemy.
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Old July 10 2014, 07:57 PM   #27
the praetor
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

You keep saying this, but I, for one, don't see it. What was so extraordinarily 'xenophobic' about the Empire?
I have seen the TOS episodes which had a Klingon storyline.
 
Klingons were portrayed as xenophobic barbarians in the TOS episodes that I saw. I remember the eps “Day of the Dove”, “Errand of Mercy”, and “Trouble with Tribbles” among others.

Klingon society was homogenous. They conquered, brutalized and subjugated non Klingon worlds and peoples. They had a superiority and, at the same time, a sort of victim complex regarding their own species.

Unfortunately, the nature of the Klingons was dramatically altered from what it was during the TOS era to what we saw through TNG times.

The transformation didn't make sense, imo.

Klingon militarism during TOS was about conquest, imperialism and brutality. During TNG, Klingon militarism was now merely about a code of honor, a way of life. They went from being barbaric to being honorable, albeit a bit uncivilized by Fed standards, but nevertheless lovable allies of the Fed.
 
This was the doing of the TNG writers. The writers de-fanged the Klingons to make them more agreeable to the viewers as allies of the Feds.

It was totally contrived to fit the dogma that the writers wanted to maintain of the kumbaya relationship between the Feds and the Klingons that started with “The Undiscovered Country”.

Imo, the TNG writers didn’t think the viewers were sophisticated enough to understand that a democracy could be allied with a brutal xenophobic dictatorship. In the real world, it happens and it has happened. An example is the US alliance with the Soviets during WWII. Currently, the US is allied with the closed xenophobic country of Saudi Arabia.

So, which is the real Klingons?

Having said that, I haven't seen any indication that the TNG Klingons aren't still a homogenous xenophobic society.

I know, the Klingon High Council let a foreigner, Picard, pick their leader and interfere in their internal affairs in so many other ways. It didn't make any sense that a proud people like the Klingons voluntarily begged an alien foreigner to pick their next leader and to continuously interfere in their internal affairs. But I suppose, if a viewer is to suspend disbelief to the max, then the viewer can see that the Klingons are no longer xenophobic.

Last edited by the praetor; July 10 2014 at 08:50 PM.
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Old July 10 2014, 09:05 PM   #28
MacLeod
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

Well TNG started before TUC came out, in fact it aired only a year after TVH came out in the cinema's.

As for a soceity changing, we are talking around a century from the end of TOS to the start of TNG, soceities can change over that time period. Besides even as early as season one of TOS "Errand of Mercy" we are told that one day the UFP and KE will become fast friends.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2]AYELBORNE: Oh, eventually you will have peace, but only after millions of people have died. It is true that in the future, you and the Klingons will become fast friends. You will work together.[/SIZE][/FONT]

So in TNG we are simply seeing that come true. If we look back at Empires in Earth's history that stood for centuries were they the same culturally at the start as they were at the end?
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Old July 10 2014, 09:07 PM   #29
BillJ
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

the praetor wrote: View Post
 
This was the doing of the TNG writers. The writers de-fanged the Klingons to make them more agreeable to the viewers as allies of the Feds.

It was totally contrived to fit the dogma that the writers wanted to maintain of the kumbaya relationship between the Feds and the Klingons that started with “The Undiscovered Country”.
You do realize the Klingon-arc episodes of TNG all were written and aired before The Undiscovered Country came out in 1991?

"Redemption II" aired the week of September 23,1991 while The Undiscovered Country hit theaters on December 6,1991 in the United States.
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Old July 10 2014, 09:43 PM   #30
Ithekro
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

The 1960s Klingons were the Soviet analog of the era. Look at the Soviet Union and you will find it is a large cluster of nationalities and ethnic groups.

The Klingons of the 1980s were becoming something else. Getting away from the Cold War era propaganda stereotype they placed in some old Imperial Japanese into them instead. Then over time justified the changes. Enterprise even goes into it a little by mentioning that the old ways (the ways of honor) were going away in favor of what we'd call the Cold War era Soviet style. Some kept the old ways, and reintroduced them when they started to get their headridges back in the 2270s. Honor began to have deferent meanings. After Praxis, one imagines the Empire turned in on itself culturally to maintain the dominance of the Klingons. Thus honor became more of a thing. Worf is just a child of his times, mixed with the notions of what is means to be Klingon, rather than having lived in Klingon society for most of his life. Thus, as some people point out, he is more Klingon that most Klingons because he tries too hard to be the model Klingon.
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