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Old July 8 2014, 04:02 AM   #211
ATimson
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Er, no they didn't. Only the establishing shot was from Mark of Gideon. The rest was an actual set they built.
They only built one "wedge"; most of the set was blue-screened.
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Old July 8 2014, 04:10 AM   #212
Ithekro
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Neither version is entirely correct. The stock footage parts were from two episodes. They made part of a bridge set and used a lot of blue screen for long cuts and some transitions. The tighter shots are the mobile wedge of the set they built along with the replica chairs and helm/navigation console. The wide shot of Scotty in front of the turboshaft has the plate from USS Enterprise on it, since that was what the question was about.
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Old July 8 2014, 09:42 AM   #213
Robert Comsol
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I do think what we saw on the holodeck wasn't just the bridge of some random Constitution-class starship, but that of the original Enterprise herself because that's the ship Scotty told the computer he wanted to see.
But the computer never knew (and never asked!) whether Scotty wanted to see the pre-TOS, TOS, TMP or TWOK bridge of “NCC-1701”. IMHO, this suggests that it only had a holodeck bridge of a (TOS) Constitution Class starship (and those of the A, B, C and D).

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
That particular version of the bridge was probably a preprogrammed default based on how it generally looked during Kirk's 5-year mission.
Technically the first look Scotty gets is that deserted bridge shot from “This Side of Paradise” (the way he remembered it and his first impression in his drunken condition). But as we get a closer look it becomes painfully obvious that this can’t be the bridge of the Enterprise.

As we can clearly see throughout the scene there the step down from the outer bridge platform is just behind the command chair’s left side (and apparently the right side, too):



But on the original TOS bridge the step down from the upper platform is only and right behind the command chair:



Probably the computer put an Enterprise dedication plaque there to increase the plausibility of the simulation.

Let's just say that I found it interesting to see the bridge of a Constitution Class starship in "Relics" (probably an authentic copy from the one in the Starfleet Museum).

Bob
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Old July 8 2014, 10:39 AM   #214
Dukhat
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
...But as we get a closer look it becomes painfully obvious that this can’t be the bridge of the Enterprise.

As we can clearly see throughout the scene there the step down from the outer bridge platform is just behind the command chair’s left side (and apparently the right side, too):

But on the original TOS bridge the step down from the upper platform is only and right behind the command chair:
This is being incredibly nitpicky. It's obvious that this simulation was meant to be the TOS Enterprise. Saying that the simulation is of some other ship just because the set builders missed a step is just silly.
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Old July 8 2014, 11:03 AM   #215
Robert Comsol
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Of course the ship's computer tried to provide Scotty with a simulation that closely approximated the TOS Enterprise (it was meant to represent the TOS Enterprise).


But the differences are clearly there and visible
  • the rail and step next to the command chair don't match
  • the color of the floor carpet is wrong (Bob Justman said so when he visited this set)
  • the helm/nav console lacks the black vertical edge
  • the helm/nav console control buttons are different and the set of switch buttons is missing (where Chekov's left hand would usually be)
  • there is less space between the alert indicator and the dedication plaque, and the lights above aren't colored (okay, I agree these truly are nitpicky)
Since we are dealing with onscreen canon, there must be an explanation for the discrepancies (hopefully not one which claims that the bridge presentation in TOS was inaccurate ).

Bob
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Old July 8 2014, 12:15 PM   #216
C.E. Evans
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I do think what we saw on the holodeck wasn't just the bridge of some random Constitution-class starship, but that of the original Enterprise herself because that's the ship Scotty told the computer he wanted to see.
But the computer never knew (and never asked!) whether Scotty wanted to see the pre-TOS, TOS, TMP or TWOK bridge of “NCC-1701”.
In the rest of my post, I said that the TOS version was probably a default version. It was likely chosen because it was the version most well known because of Kirk's 5-year mission.
IMHO, this suggests that it only had a holodeck bridge of a (TOS) Constitution Class starship (and those of the A, B, C and D).
Not necessarily. See towards the end below.
Technically the first look Scotty gets is that deserted bridge shot from “This Side of Paradise” (the way he remembered it and his first impression in his drunken condition). But as we get a closer look it becomes painfully obvious that this can’t be the bridge of the Enterprise.

As we can clearly see throughout the scene there the step down from the outer bridge platform is just behind the command chair’s left side (and apparently the right side, too):

But on the original TOS bridge the step down from the upper platform is only and right behind the command chair:
Dukhat wrote: View Post
This is being incredibly nitpicky. It's obvious that this simulation was meant to be the TOS Enterprise. Saying that the simulation is of some other ship just because the set builders missed a step is just silly.
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Of course the ship's computer tried to provide Scotty with a simulation that closely approximated the TOS Enterprise (it was meant to represent the TOS Enterprise).


But the differences are clearly there and visible


  • the rail and step next to the command chair don't match
  • the color of the floor carpet is wrong (Bob Justman said so when he visited this set)
  • the helm/nav console lacks the black vertical edge
  • the helm/nav console control buttons are different and the set of switch buttons is missing (where Chekov's left hand would usually be)
  • there is less space between the alert indicator and the dedication plaque, and the lights above aren't colored (okay, I agree these truly are nitpicky)
Since we are dealing with onscreen canon, there must be an explanation for the discrepancies (hopefully not one which claims that the bridge presentation in TOS was inaccurate ).
It could have been how the Enterprise bridge looked towards the end of Kirk's mission. We only saw three of those five years and the bridge could have had (another) upgrade after the end of the televised episodes.
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Last edited by C.E. Evans; July 8 2014 at 01:49 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old July 8 2014, 01:07 PM   #217
Mytran
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Maybe the holodeck simulation was generated based on the standard Bridge module construction plans stored in the archive files. The actual final appearance of the Enterprise's bridge (and likely many others) probably varied according to on the spot decisions during construction, personal stylistic preferences of the Captain and so on.
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Old July 8 2014, 02:52 PM   #218
Robert Comsol
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
It could have been how the Enterprise bridge looked towards the end of Kirk's mission. We only saw three of those five years and the bridge could have had (another) upgrade after the end of the televised episodes.
While I couldn't rule out such a possibility, I think what we saw in TOS was the whole 5-year-mission (with unseen events - e.g. defeat of Romulan ship near Tau Ceti - happening between visualized stories).

Bob
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Old July 8 2014, 03:05 PM   #219
Ithekro
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

If one read the novel "Crossover", The old USS Yorktown is one of Starfleet's museum ships. However its bridge module was badly damaged so the replaced it with the actual module from the USS Enterprise as it was when it entered drydock to be refit following Kirk's five-year mission. My impression would be that a detailed holographic record of this bridge would have been done in this condition, as it was in 2270 or perhaps 2271, depending on when she actually started her refit and they removed the bridge (the events of TMP having been moved up to 2273 and 18 months in refit doesn't go all the way back to 2270). Though this might technically mean that the bridge should be in the condition is was during TAS.
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Old July 8 2014, 03:19 PM   #220
Robert Comsol
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Thanks for mentioning TAS. Here is a screencap from its last episode (going by stardate chronology) according to which there was still no rail right behind the command chair.

Had Scotty not been that drunk in "Relics" he probably would have thought "this bridge must have been put together by monkeys".

Bob
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Old July 8 2014, 04:14 PM   #221
Ithekro
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Ghosting in the holorecording. Never double expose a 3D picture or you'll get things in weird places on the holodeck.

Regardless, it is still the bridge from USS Enterprise.

(The recreation of the sets used by Phase II/New Voyages is far superior to what they did back in Relics, but then they had time to make the full set from full plans on the New Voyages set.)
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Old July 8 2014, 07:18 PM   #222
Ronald Held
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Of course the ship's computer tried to provide Scotty with a simulation that closely approximated the TOS Enterprise (it was meant to represent the TOS Enterprise).


But the differences are clearly there and visible
  • the rail and step next to the command chair don't match
  • the color of the floor carpet is wrong (Bob Justman said so when he visited this set)
  • the helm/nav console lacks the black vertical edge
  • the helm/nav console control buttons are different and the set of switch buttons is missing (where Chekov's left hand would usually be)
  • there is less space between the alert indicator and the dedication plaque, and the lights above aren't colored (okay, I agree these truly are nitpicky)
Since we are dealing with onscreen canon, there must be an explanation for the discrepancies (hopefully not one which claims that the bridge presentation in TOS was inaccurate ).

Bob
How did all these discrepancies get through to filming?
No matter many errors there were Scott was too drunk to notice and what was there was to provide him emotional support
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Old July 8 2014, 09:12 PM   #223
Ithekro
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

They only had a limited set to work with and they moved it around to give the impresion that there was more to it. Some parts were modified so they could be used as other bits and were compromises to get the shots done in time and on budget.

The colors and such were taken from almost 25 year old photographs and reprints of said photographs without color correction for the fading of the prints and lighting of those old 1960s sets.

The replics were made by someone else and borrowed for the episode. The builder may have not had accurate diagrams to work with in the 1980s. Or inaccurate fan blueprints made in the 1970s.

Regardless it is the USS Enterprise as both Scott and Picard accept it as so.

Mind you that Picard has probably only seen one in a museum and Scotty likely hasn't seen this bridge setup for about 25 years by his interal clock (100 years ago by the time of the episode).
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Old July 8 2014, 10:28 PM   #224
yenny
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

This is a clip from Next Generation six season bluRay that is at stores now. It is behind the scene of Relics of building the Enterprise 1701 bridge set.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4cgThG9usc
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Old July 9 2014, 12:24 AM   #225
Robert Comsol
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Ithekro wrote: View Post
The colors and such were taken from almost 25 year old photographs and reprints of said photographs without color correction for the fading of the prints and lighting of those old 1960s sets.
VHS tapes and LaserDiscs with a rather correct coloring were available back then

Ithekro wrote: View Post
The replics were made by someone else and borrowed for the episode. The builder may have not had accurate diagrams to work with in the 1980s. Or inaccurate fan blueprints made in the 1970s.
Actually all available publications had the correct bridge layout, from The Making of Star Trek, FJ's Technical Manual to Michael Mc Master's bridge blueprints. I just learned from some friends that some guys went through the hazzle of constructing a life-size X-Wing Fighter, based on the erroneous MPC model kit. Some guys apparently just don't care about accuracy.

Ithekro wrote: View Post
Regardless it is the USS Enterprise as both Scott and Picard accept it as so.
Sure, it worked for general audiences but usually around here some of us are a wee bit more demanding.

Again, the ship's computer didn't even ask Scotty which "1701" bridge, and Picard just confirms it's the bridge of a Constitution Class starship (he has never seen the bridge of the real TOS Enterprise). Add to this Scotty is drunk, so from an in-universe research point of view this bridge does not look like an accurate reproduction of the actual TOS bridge but rather an approximation which is all the ship's computer had to offer (but it worked fine for Scotty who was probably impressed what a 24th Century holodeck could do)

Bob
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