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Old June 30 2014, 04:05 PM   #76
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Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

^ I don't get that from her at all, she doesn't propose complacency but rather continued awareness of the issue as well as continued strive for improvement.

Remembering that, for the most part, participants in this debate share a love for their hobby is not a bad thing - everyone wants video games to get better, inclusiveness is - in part - one aspect of that.
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Old June 30 2014, 06:24 PM   #77
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Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

SPCTRE wrote: View Post
^ I don't get that from her at all, she doesn't propose complacency but rather continued awareness of the issue as well as continued strive for improvement.

Remembering that, for the most part, participants in this debate share a love for their hobby is not a bad thing - everyone wants video games to get better, inclusiveness is - in part - one aspect of that.
I don't think "everyone" wants video games to get better in terms of being inclusive. In fact, there is ample evidence, even in this thread, to the contrary.
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Old June 30 2014, 10:28 PM   #78
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Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
"Optional" and "afterthought" are different words with different meanings. Final Fantasy games are famous for having lots of optional side quests, and yet they aren't generally considered afterthoughts.
Sometimes (at least when it comes to game mechanics) what feels like an afterthought is a case of the team not being able to meet the deadline.
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Old July 2 2014, 01:54 AM   #79
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Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

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DA and ME are the *gold standard* of NOT treating Romance as an afterthought. Just following a pre-written character is about as involving as mud. People go bonkers for Bioware games precisely because they *don't* treat romance as an afterthought. When I think Bioware I immediately think of the romance options. AssCreed, while being a series I very much love, is about the last game I'd hold up by comparison for it's involving romance options. Sheesh.
Dragon Age I'd agree with you. The romance actually affects the plot, at least in Origins. But you could drop it entirely from Mass Effect, and there'd be no differences in the plot or in your party members. That certainly feels like a bolted-on afterthought to me.
You can't say the words 'Mass' or 'Effect' around me without my mind *immediately* leaping to Shepard and Liara. Liara is more or less my definition of 'romance in gaming'. If ME didn't exist, I'd basically think romance wasn't really something that games could do. She's no afterthough. Her final goodbye to Shepard in ME3 is one of my favourite moments in all of gaming, period.
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Old July 6 2014, 04:25 AM   #80
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Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

The only good excuse they could have is "We didn't think of it during initial design and at this point we don't have the budget to go back and put a female character in. Our bad. We will look into for future versions."

Other than that, there is no reason they couldn't put a female character in.
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Old July 6 2014, 09:41 AM   #81
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Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

Female characters in the past AC games would have led to entirely different storylines. I really don't want to spend my time with a feministic tale about how bad it was for women in this or that century, because, let's face it, it was horrible for women in the AC time frames.
Let's say Connor was not only native, but also female. That would have been dramatic overkill, in my opinion. When you make Kenway a woman, you have to deal with the reactions of all other characters to her actions (what was that Geena Davis Pirate movie disaster). Make Ezio a woman, not only need you change her entire Barney Stinson routine, you need to spend a story on her become pregnant while she is still able to (and can't tell Revelations in the same way).
You can't just switch gender and be done with it.
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Old July 6 2014, 10:53 AM   #82
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Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

Why does a female character need to have specific gender orientated storylines?

I'm currently playing AC4 - Black Flag and am at the point where Kenway gets his base of operations and so far i haven't seen a single thing that would have to changed for a female character.

This is a strawman argument because there doesn't have to be gender specific storylines. Women can be as macho as men (sometimes they have to be when they live in an overly macho world like Pirates) and as capable. I don't see the need to define them through their relationship with men.

I've mentioned this before.. there have been many kickass female characters in gaming and film that were perfectly fine. New Lara Croft, basically any female in Mass Effect (laughed out lout when that reporter socked Shepard in the mouth for being too frisky in ME3), Ripley in Aliens, Sarah Connor, nuBSG Starbuck etc.

Problem is that it's easier for mostly male writers to write guys because they know how to (being guys themselves) and they still assume it's mostly male gamers that play their games. Once that circle gets broken we might see more interesting games with a female lead.
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Old July 6 2014, 10:09 PM   #83
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Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

FPAlpha wrote: View Post
Why does a female character need to have specific gender orientated storylines?

I'm currently playing AC4 - Black Flag and am at the point where Kenway gets his base of operations and so far i haven't seen a single thing that would have to changed for a female character.

Aside from his entire backstory.

Maybe you haven't gotten there yet, and I'm not going to spoil it just in case, but Kenway being a man is kind of necessary considering who he turns out to be.

I mean, I suppose they could have re-written the story to make him a woman, but doing so would also have changed the nature of the relationships he has, which I felt were fairly important to the character (and to the greater AC mythos).
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Old July 7 2014, 06:06 AM   #84
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Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

I think we're talking at cross purposes here. The point isn't that Ubisoft could have re-written their existing characters to be female, it's that for their new co-op game it never even *occurred* to them to make even one of the four new player avatars female AND that their stated excuse is that it'd be too difficult to animate...which I think we can all agree is the most ridiculous statement ever and a poor excuse that does little to disguise their thoughtless laziness. I mean for a franchise of this magnitude, there's no way "budgetary limitations" was the real reason. As a number of game other developers have since come out with, it's really not all that difficult and hardly makes *any* difference to the animation budget.
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Old July 7 2014, 12:40 PM   #85
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Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
FPAlpha wrote: View Post
Why does a female character need to have specific gender orientated storylines?

I'm currently playing AC4 - Black Flag and am at the point where Kenway gets his base of operations and so far i haven't seen a single thing that would have to changed for a female character.

Aside from his entire backstory.

Maybe you haven't gotten there yet, and I'm not going to spoil it just in case, but Kenway being a man is kind of necessary considering who he turns out to be.

I mean, I suppose they could have re-written the story to make him a woman, but doing so would also have changed the nature of the relationships he has, which I felt were fairly important to the character (and to the greater AC mythos).
I've got no problem with a story that deals with a man and needs to tell the story of a male person or it would not work. Gender equality can also go too far.

It becomes a problem when you write generic stories and still only stick to male leads because you believe your target demographic consists of only guys (which is also wrong).
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Old July 7 2014, 02:01 PM   #86
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Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

Reverend wrote: View Post
I think we're talking at cross purposes here. The point isn't that Ubisoft could have re-written their existing characters to be female, it's that for their new co-op game it never even *occurred* to them to make even one of the four new player avatars female AND that their stated excuse is that it'd be too difficult to animate...which I think we can all agree is the most ridiculous statement ever and a poor excuse that does little to disguise their thoughtless laziness.
Exactly. Even though most people outside the industry severely underestimate how expensive game development is, this should not distract us from the actual issue of their super-flimsy excuse.
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Old July 7 2014, 06:44 PM   #87
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Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

Realistic female characters do need a whole new set of animations. Male and female walk cycles are different, for example. Fight animations are extremely complex. So additional weeks of motion capture with female performers. That's very expensive.
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Old July 7 2014, 07:47 PM   #88
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Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

I'm really not sure why everyone is getting up in arms about Assassin's Creed not having gender diversity. Assassin's Creed is the Transformers of video games. Nobody cares when Transformers is racist or sexist because you know it's a dumb shlockly action movie -- you accept it for what it is and roll your eyes. You save your expectations of higher standards for the better films from better companies. Well, you should do the same for Assassin's Creed.

Assassin's Creed is a shlocky action movie. Lower your expectations accordingly. Save your higher expectations for games such as, oh, I dunno, Shin Megami Tensei and Dragon Age.
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Old July 7 2014, 11:44 PM   #89
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Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Realistic female characters do need a whole new set of animations. Male and female walk cycles are different, for example. Fight animations are extremely complex. So additional weeks of motion capture with female performers. That's very expensive.
Apparently not. I forget where I saw it, but some devs from other studios have basically called bullshit on this claim. I remember that one said it took them all of an afternoon to add a new set of animations into their game.

Even if that were the case, AssCreed is a HUGELY successful franchise and Ubi practically throw money at it. So when they plead poverty as the reason they can't do what the likes of Saints Row and Dragon Age have been doing for years...it rings a little hollow.


...Also, unless I'm mistaken, up-until this point all of the AssCreed games have had fully animated female NPCs, Plus the game they already made with a female NPC so...

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Old July 8 2014, 09:44 PM   #90
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Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

Kelthaz wrote: View Post
I'm really not sure why everyone is getting up in arms about Assassin's Creed not having gender diversity. Assassin's Creed is the Transformers of video games. Nobody cares when Transformers is racist or sexist because you know it's a dumb shlockly action movie -- you accept it for what it is and roll your eyes. You save your expectations of higher standards for the better films from better companies. Well, you should do the same for Assassin's Creed.

Assassin's Creed is a shlocky action movie. Lower your expectations accordingly. Save your higher expectations for games such as, oh, I dunno, Shin Megami Tensei and Dragon Age.
To be fair, people do care when Transformers objectifies women and whatnot. It's just that people go watch the movies anyway.

Of course it's funny to see Ubisoft respond with "bursting to the gills" with women in Far Cry 4. Binders full of women, the video game.
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