RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,853
Posts: 5,474,315
Members: 25,043
Currently online: 412
Newest member: denver23

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Covenant
By: Michelle on Nov 22

Two Official Starships Collection Previews
By: T'Bonz on Nov 21

Saldana: Women Issues In Hollywood
By: T'Bonz on Nov 21

Shatner Book Kickstarter
By: T'Bonz on Nov 20

Trek Original Series Slippers
By: T'Bonz on Nov 19

Hemsworth Is Sexiest Man Alive
By: T'Bonz on Nov 19

Trek Business Card Cases
By: T'Bonz on Nov 17

February IDW Publishing Trek Comics
By: T'Bonz on Nov 17

Retro Review: The Siege of AR-558
By: Michelle on Nov 15

Trevco Full Bleed Uniform T-Shirts
By: T'Bonz on Nov 14


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Gaming

Gaming Non-Star Trek Gaming

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 25 2014, 08:10 AM   #61
Deckerd
Fleet Arse
 
Deckerd's Avatar
 
Location: the Frozen Wastes
Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

SPCTRE wrote: View Post
You just can't rely on a main character who might get pregnant during a crucial phase of development, I mean, these are multiple hundred million dollar productions.
__________________
They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance.
Deckerd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 27 2014, 03:57 AM   #62
ATimson
Rear Admiral
 
ATimson's Avatar
 
Location: Andrew Timson
Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

FPAlpha wrote: View Post
Given our changes in society however sooner or later i may be left in the dust if other companies realize the potential of the other half of humanity and that they like to be entertained too.
So if females aren't entertained by playing guys, why would companies want to throw away their existing audience of guys (who presumably feel the same way and don't want to play girls)? Game developers and release slots are a finite resource, and unless they're going to make more money by having female characters than male, it's a losing proposition.

If a game with a strong character & narrative arc can support both genders, like Mass Effect, with minimal additional work? Great. When you get something like Uncharted or Assassin's Creed II where changing the gender would require significant changes (gender-swaps of other characters), it's hard to see how that would be worth the investment.
__________________
Andrew Timson
===============
"Niceness is the greatest human flaw, except for all the others." - Brendan Moody

"...don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido
ATimson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 27 2014, 11:50 AM   #63
FPAlpha
Vice Admiral
 
FPAlpha's Avatar
 
Location: Mannheim, Germany
Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

Mass Effect is a great example for this where a company can write a story where the gender is not important and the development team took care to provide as many options as possible so gamers (male and female).

In fact i have a close female friend who's not much of a gamer but she's a massive ME fan also due to reasons mentioned above (you should see her kick ass as female Sheperd and squeal in joy when she defeats the enemies ).

So it's down to the developers to broaden their horizon and publish games that have appeal to both genders or write games where guys wouldn't care they play a girl because the game is good (the new Tomb Raider for example).

I also don't believe gamers are misogynistic to begin with, merely immature which unfortunately gets amplified through the anonymity of the internet where they can blurt out the most insane stuff without fear of repercussions.
__________________
"But that emergency was supposed to be the fall of an Avenger!" Phil Coulson
"Exactly!"
Nick Fury
FPAlpha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 27 2014, 12:19 PM   #64
{ Emilia }
#betterthanromney
 
{ Emilia }'s Avatar
 
Location: Ask Donna
Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

ATimson wrote: View Post
So if females aren't entertained by playing guys, why would companies want to throw away their existing audience of guys (who presumably feel the same way and don't want to play girls)?
Holy straw man.
I do play games with male protagonists and can enjoy them. That doesn't mean I and many other female gamers wouldn't prefer a little more balanced representation of women in video games.

Your reasoning is absurd.
{ Emilia } is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 27 2014, 02:21 PM   #65
Robert Maxwell
beep
 
Location: boop
View Robert Maxwell's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to Robert Maxwell Send a message via AIM to Robert Maxwell Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Robert Maxwell Send a message via Yahoo to Robert Maxwell
Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

Let's also be honest here: there are very few games where the player character's gender matters at all to the story. We just get a white dude as default because that's who the bean counters think they should be appealing to.
__________________
I has a blag.
Robert Maxwell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 27 2014, 03:12 PM   #66
ATimson
Rear Admiral
 
ATimson's Avatar
 
Location: Andrew Timson
Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

{ Emilia } wrote: View Post
ATimson wrote: View Post
So if females aren't entertained by playing guys, why would companies want to throw away their existing audience of guys (who presumably feel the same way and don't want to play girls)?
Holy straw man.
I do play games with male protagonists and can enjoy them. That doesn't mean I and many other female gamers wouldn't prefer a little more balanced representation of women in video games.

Your reasoning is absurd.
The "straw man" would be FPAlpha's, then. I don't actually think that's the case (hence why that sentence starts with a conditional); but FPAlpha posited that as a fact. And if it is, then I'd like to know why the converse isn't.
__________________
Andrew Timson
===============
"Niceness is the greatest human flaw, except for all the others." - Brendan Moody

"...don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido
ATimson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 27 2014, 08:44 PM   #67
Owain Taggart
Rear Admiral
 
Owain Taggart's Avatar
 
Location: Northern Ontario, Canada
Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

FPAlpha wrote: View Post
Mass Effect is a great example for this where a company can write a story where the gender is not important and the development team took care to provide as many options as possible so gamers (male and female).

This. A thousand times this. I honestly don't see how an Assassin's Creed wouldn't be able to achieve this. Just give people the option and people will make their own adventures. Bioware has shown that they can leave the option and still make great stories.
Owain Taggart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 28 2014, 03:55 AM   #68
ATimson
Rear Admiral
 
ATimson's Avatar
 
Location: Andrew Timson
Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

Owain Taggart wrote: View Post
This. A thousand times this. I honestly don't see how an Assassin's Creed wouldn't be able to achieve this. Just give people the option and people will make their own adventures. Bioware has shown that they can leave the option and still make great stories.
Bioware also didn't include Shepard's family, and treated romance as an afterthought. Compare that to Assassin's Creed II (where the romance with Caterina Sforza is a key driver of the plot in the second half of the game) or III (the story wouldn't work at all if Haytham was female).

Bioware shows that it can be done, yes; but not every story lends itself to that.

(And just to show that I'm not giving Ubisoft/AC a pass for whatever reason: the original Assassin's Creed by itself would've worked regardless of Altair's gender, though the sequels make that trickier or impossible. Black Flag would have required a little more work - not just the epilogue - but I think it would have been tweaking of details rather than a wholesale plot replacement like II and III.)
__________________
Andrew Timson
===============
"Niceness is the greatest human flaw, except for all the others." - Brendan Moody

"...don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido
ATimson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 28 2014, 06:55 AM   #69
Owain Taggart
Rear Admiral
 
Owain Taggart's Avatar
 
Location: Northern Ontario, Canada
Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

ATimson wrote: View Post
Bioware shows that it can be done, yes; but not every story lends itself to that.
That kind of goes without saying though. Yes, not every story can lend itself to it, but to close the door on it before it's even open? That's essentially what Ubisoft is doing. They're shrugging it all off. Nobody is saying they have to do it, but rather for them to acknowledge the possibility rather than outright dismissal.

(And just to show that I'm not giving Ubisoft/AC a pass for whatever reason: the original Assassin's Creed by itself would've worked regardless of Altair's gender, though the sequels make that trickier or impossible. Black Flag would have required a little more work - not just the epilogue - but I think it would have been tweaking of details rather than a wholesale plot replacement like II and III.)

First game, you're right. That could have worked. Haven't played Black Flag yet, though I do have it in my backlog. That one I think would require more stretching in terms of the pirate theme.
Owain Taggart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 28 2014, 07:35 AM   #70
SPCTRE
BATMANBATMANBATMAN
 
SPCTRE's Avatar
 
View SPCTRE's Twitter Profile
Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

ATimson wrote: View Post
Bioware also didn't include Shepard's family
Not true, some portions are dependent on your chosen back story, but they are there.
__________________
“Running a big company is like running a cemetery: there are thousands of people beneath you, but no one is listening. It was a bit like that at Sony.”
— Former Sony CEO and chairman Sir Howard Stringer
SPCTRE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 30 2014, 04:43 AM   #71
Destructor
Commodore
 
Destructor's Avatar
 
Location: Melbourne, VIC
Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

ATimson wrote: View Post
Bioware also didn't include Shepard's family, and treated romance as an afterthought.


ATimson wrote: View Post
...treated romance as an afterthought.


ATimson wrote: View Post
...romance as an afterthought.


ATimson wrote: View Post
...afterthought.


DA and ME are the *gold standard* of NOT treating Romance as an afterthought. Just following a pre-written character is about as involving as mud. People go bonkers for Bioware games precisely because they *don't* treat romance as an afterthought. When I think Bioware I immediately think of the romance options. AssCreed, while being a series I very much love, is about the last game I'd hold up by comparison for it's involving romance options. Sheesh.
Destructor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 30 2014, 02:40 PM   #72
ATimson
Rear Admiral
 
ATimson's Avatar
 
Location: Andrew Timson
Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

Destructor wrote: View Post
DA and ME are the *gold standard* of NOT treating Romance as an afterthought. Just following a pre-written character is about as involving as mud. People go bonkers for Bioware games precisely because they *don't* treat romance as an afterthought. When I think Bioware I immediately think of the romance options. AssCreed, while being a series I very much love, is about the last game I'd hold up by comparison for it's involving romance options. Sheesh.
Dragon Age I'd agree with you. The romance actually affects the plot, at least in Origins. But you could drop it entirely from Mass Effect, and there'd be no differences in the plot or in your party members. That certainly feels like a bolted-on afterthought to me.
__________________
Andrew Timson
===============
"Niceness is the greatest human flaw, except for all the others." - Brendan Moody

"...don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido
ATimson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 30 2014, 03:33 PM   #73
Robert Maxwell
beep
 
Location: boop
View Robert Maxwell's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to Robert Maxwell Send a message via AIM to Robert Maxwell Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Robert Maxwell Send a message via Yahoo to Robert Maxwell
Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

"Optional" and "afterthought" are different words with different meanings. Final Fantasy games are famous for having lots of optional side quests, and yet they aren't generally considered afterthoughts.
__________________
I has a blag.
Robert Maxwell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 30 2014, 03:38 PM   #74
SPCTRE
BATMANBATMANBATMAN
 
SPCTRE's Avatar
 
View SPCTRE's Twitter Profile
Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

Aisha Tyler wrote this obviously heartfelt piece on diversity in video games over on Facebook.
Okay this is the last I'll say on diversity in gaming for this round of slavering frothy machination. This is what I said in the long form version of my interview with NPR on the floor at E3, which unfortunately, because of time, was greatly truncated.

There is not enough diversity in gaming, both onscreen and in game development. I do not dispute that. HOWEVER.

It is changing. And the fact that TWD was the 2012 VGA Game of the Year, with a strong, complex black lead and an asian co-lead; that The Last of Us has a female co-lead who is revealed in the DLC to be a lesbian; that the co-lead in Gears of War was Latino; that there were multiple strong female characters in Bioshock: Infinite, a game that focused in an elegant way on issues of race and racism; that the last three AC games had leads who were, in order, black and female, Trinidadian, and Native American; that Tomb Raider, with a female lead, is one of the biggest-selling games of all time (despite the massive rack); that there are dozens of other examples I don't have time to Google — means we are making progress.

We are nowhere near where we need to be. The dearth of gaming execs who are female or of color belies a bigger problem with our educational system. We need to do a better job of training kids in math and science. And for sure, game developers need to do a better job of recruiting and developing diverse talent. Gamers of every gender and ethnicity are demanding it, both inside games and out. As widely reported, half of all gamers are women. And black and Latino teens spend far more time gaming than their white counterparts. So gamers already have the numbers. They already mean something. But to sit on the sidelines and whine changes nothing.

Gamers have to DEMAND change, both with their voices and their pocketbooks. There are plenty of games in which you can create your avatar, and I know hundreds of straight white guys who play as hot badass mohawked Asian lesbians when they are able to design their own characters (Skyrim, Fallout, Mass Effect, etc.).

We are creating our own diversity. We ARE our own diversity.

Gamers are not a monolith. And we are not perfect. But we know where our issues lie. One person's opinion does not define an industry. Not mine, not Anita Sarkeesian's, not any single game developer. We are not a monolith.

The only thing we truly and fully share, is our love of games.

Let's focus on what unites us instead of what divides us.

Our love of gaming.

Game on.
__________________
“Running a big company is like running a cemetery: there are thousands of people beneath you, but no one is listening. It was a bit like that at Sony.”
— Former Sony CEO and chairman Sir Howard Stringer
SPCTRE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 30 2014, 03:51 PM   #75
Robert Maxwell
beep
 
Location: boop
View Robert Maxwell's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to Robert Maxwell Send a message via AIM to Robert Maxwell Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Robert Maxwell Send a message via Yahoo to Robert Maxwell
Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

That's pretty nonsensical. Gamers and the gaming industry are only paying attention to diversity issues because they've become very prominent in gaming media, in response to the work of particular activists like Sarkeesian but also many others before her. Admonishments to "focus on what unites us instead of what divides us" read like hollow cheerleading rather than a call to continue the positive trend. Complacency is not the answer.
__________________
I has a blag.
Robert Maxwell is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:28 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.