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Old June 25 2014, 05:31 PM   #361
Enterprise1701
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Well unless I'm confronted by a new scientific consensus that homosexuality is indeed unnatural and has no right to exist (which I don't believe will ever happen), I will continue to be confounded by the people in the world who believe so.
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Old June 25 2014, 06:10 PM   #362
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

I can't wait until they discover that there is a genetic basis for homophobia and come out with a pill that can cure it.

Unti then, we'll just have to keep 'Praying the gay bashing away'.

Maybe the answer is to start some kind of camp where homosexual teenagers can send their homophobic parents to cure them.

It is going to be an interesting debate when somebody discovers the exact physiological basis of attraction. Whether the cause of homosexuality is genetic, hormonal, whatever, it's only a matter of time before somebody figures out a way to manipulate it.

Hopefully by the time we get there our culture will have progressed to a point where we can just let people be in control of their own bodies and not judge their choices whatever choice they make.
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Old June 25 2014, 06:34 PM   #363
Merry Christmas
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
I can't wait until they discover that there is a genetic basis for homophobia and come out with a pill that can cure it.
But how would you get those people to freely swallow it, with fore knowledge of it's effect?

I disagree with homophobia, but I would fight any attempt to force such a pill upon anyone.

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Old June 25 2014, 11:26 PM   #364
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

You mean, 'Hate the hate, love the hater'?
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Old June 25 2014, 11:59 PM   #365
borgboy
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

It's so hypothetical an issue, I can't too worked up over the moral issues of an anti hate pill. There is no research into this. Too many real issue to think about before I'd worry about the rights of the haters. The gov't would never make taking that a mandatory thing anyways.
Officially I'd be against forcing people to take that, their rights, blah blah...buy y'know, what about the rights of all the gay kids to grow up in a world free from homophobia? Whose rights are more important? Too many gay kids commit suicide, or are driven to self destructive behavior, or are bashed and murdered, all from homophobia? If some bigots had to take an anti homophobia pill, I'd sleep just fine.
But realistically, this isn't a thing. Unlike all the hokey studies that actually do try to "cure" homosexuality.
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Old June 26 2014, 12:10 AM   #366
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Uhurock wrote: View Post
As for Klingons not being gay because they're warriors/hypermasculine, I dare you to say that to an ancient Spartan or Athenian.
Last I heard all of those guys were dead. However I understand your point that sometimes Spartans cried out not because an enemy was in front of them but because another Spartan was behind. As for the Klingons, as I interpret their culture as presented throughout the series the policy would be at best "Don't Ask Don't Tell" for the very reason you cite.

Uhurock wrote: View Post
Today's military has many gays who excel in the service; my best friend is one who had to remain tightly closeted for 23 years.
They do not excel because they are gay, they excel because they are good soldiers.
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Old June 26 2014, 12:34 AM   #367
Sistrin
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
I can't wait until they discover that there is a genetic basis for homophobia and come out with a pill that can cure it.
If there is a genetic basis for homophobia then there would also be a genetic basis for being gay. Protein chemist are already working on various "pills" which would contain pre-programmed viruses coded to penetrate damaged or compromised cells and correct said damage or imperfections. I don't see how anyone could support forcing pills on one segment of the population who may voice an opinion they don't like but rail against any suggestion another segment of the population be treated likewise.

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Until then, we'll just have to keep 'Praying the gay bashing away'.
Why attack Christianity? Because I seriously doubt you are targeting those of faiths whom routinely put gays to death.

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Maybe the answer is to start some kind of camp where homosexual teenagers can send their homophobic parents to cure them.
Perhaps in Russia or Iran that might work, but here people have the right to disagree with each other, an organization promoting a political agenda, or the government itself without fear of being shipped off to a re-education camp.

Of course you could be joking, but as that excuse didn't work for Gary Oldman...

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
It is going to be an interesting debate when somebody discovers the exact physiological basis of attraction. Whether the cause of homosexuality is genetic, hormonal, whatever, it's only a matter of time before somebody figures out a way to manipulate it.
Agreed. What then?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Hopefully by the time we get there our culture will have progressed to a point where we can just let people be in control of their own bodies and not judge their choices whatever choice they make.
Tell that to the current First Lady. And the progressives in general.
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Old June 26 2014, 12:40 AM   #368
JarodRussell
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Some (if not most) prejudice against gays is a derivative of sexism. That's where all that "girlie man" stuff comes from. Male homosexuals appear more feminine, are considered weaker, are associated with "typical" female activities, like shopping, ballet dancing, hair dressing, fashion design, etc... Gay men are supposed to be a woman's best friend (next to diamonds, I suppose). That's all sexist bullshit. So in a society without sexism, gays would be more accepted.
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Old June 26 2014, 12:57 AM   #369
borgboy
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

There was a strong warrior Klingon married to a male Klingon doctor in one of Martin and Magnles's Enterprise novels. Outside of our own limited preconceptions and prejudices, there's absolutely no reason to think that Klingons have any sort of homophobic bias.
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Old June 26 2014, 03:18 AM   #370
Merry Christmas
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
You mean, 'Hate the hate, love the hater'?
Not at all, it's a case of you don't get to force a pill down someone throat solely because you possess a opposing philosophical, societal or political position than they do.

How far are you willing to go to obtain a society that conforms to your own ideas of "acceptable."

Maybe the answer is to start some kind of camp where homosexual teenagers can send their homophobic parents to cure them.
Perhaps it can be right next to the camp for the Jews?


Last edited by Merry Christmas; June 26 2014 at 03:29 AM.
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Old June 26 2014, 04:23 PM   #371
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Since same-sex relations haven't been looked at in Trek, there's nothing to say that races such as the Klingons or Cardassians don't consider it acceptable, normal or even expected under certain circumstances--for all we know the reason behind Dukat and Garak's hostility is that of scorned lovers
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Old June 26 2014, 05:34 PM   #372
Misfit Toy
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Since same-sex relations haven't been looked at in Trek, there's nothing to say that races such as the Klingons or Cardassians don't consider it acceptable, normal or even expected under certain circumstances--for all we know the reason behind Dukat and Garak's hostility is that of scorned lovers
Thank you Bry, for bringing the discussion back to Trek.

As long as the thread remains Trek-centric, it will remain open. A more general discussion of homosexual rights may be had in the Miscellaneous forum or The Neutral Zone.
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Old June 26 2014, 06:19 PM   #373
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
... acceptable, normal or even expected under certain circumstances ...
When people generally have described homosexuality as abnormal, it has one of a few specific connotations: either biologically unfounded, psychologically aberrant and degenerate, or outrightly anti-religious. You're right that in the Cardassian and Klingon cases, there is room for homosexual relationships as long as one's family or house is in order (in the broad Ancient Greek sense). However, I don't think that those are the only values that might affect sexual orientation and relationships.

The two cases that I think might produce contradictory results are the Ferengi and Vulcan. Both might tolerate homosexuality, but other values might discourage it. Quark and other Ferengi have generally treated relationships, sexual as well as purely reproductive, as acquisitions. Moreover, Ferengi have a skewed understanding of gender, which is reflected in the unequal relationship of marriage. How far can a same-sex relationship go if a it must be formalized contractually at some point? Ferengi might not regard such relationships as aberrant, but not being good business might have take a toll.

Conversely, what happens when a species is either indifferent to or actively seeks to repress its basic drives? Vulcan relationships are so ritualized and formalized that I think it's fair to wonder whether there is room for recreative sexuality of any type, hetero- or homosexual. The fact that two children are psychically bonded before they (probably) can express themselves with sexual maturity is extraordinarily problematic. From T'Pol, I get the sense that most Vulcans see relationships as a formality that they all go through without really questioning things. I guess two boys or two girls could be bonded at an early age, but we would be left with the same questions Trip made about heterosexual marriage: how can an individual want the relationship that has been arranged for them? I guess what I am saying is that it may not matter whether Vulcans tolerate homosexual relationships (or if they are common) is there isn't much room for free will and self-expression in any relationship.
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Old June 26 2014, 06:30 PM   #374
Merry Christmas
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Bad Thoughts wrote: View Post
The fact that two children are psychically bonded before they (probably) can express themselves with sexual maturity is extraordinarily problematic.
In T'pol's case, she wasn't bond until she was about 50 years, so child bonding does occure, may be the norm, but it isn't universal.

Somehow Stonn was availible for T'Pring.

but we would be left with the same questions Trip made about heterosexual marriage: how can an individual want the relationship that has been arranged for them?.
Even today not all Human marriages are seen as primarily romantic.

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Old June 26 2014, 06:48 PM   #375
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Even today not all Human marriages are seen as primarily romantic.

Without a doubt!
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