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Old June 24 2014, 09:02 PM   #16
Enterprise1701
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Re: Could the Fed have renegotiated the Treaty of Algeron...

I hope the Treaty of Algeron doesn't apply to the Federation following the Hobus Supernova of 2387.
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Old June 25 2014, 07:17 PM   #17
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Re: Could the Fed have renegotiated the Treaty of Algeron...

MacLeod wrote: View Post
wouldn't those things possible threaten the RSE as well, in which case they could grant an exception to the treaty for a lmited time.
Just like they granted the Federation a whole 1 cloaking device to face the Dominion? And then cut a deal with the Dominion to stay out of the war?
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Old June 25 2014, 07:20 PM   #18
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Re: Could the Fed have renegotiated the Treaty of Algeron...

I don't see why the Romulans would want to. The Treaty essentially gives them an upper-hand to the Federation, so why would they just get rid of it?
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Old June 26 2014, 04:25 AM   #19
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Re: Could the Fed have renegotiated the Treaty of Algeron...

I made this thread because of how lax the Romulans appeared to be about their loaned cloaking device to the Federation. At both the beginning of the Dominion conflict, to the Romulan's signing a non-aggression pact with the Dominion, to full scale war in season 6, to when the Romualns were duped in to joining the war. It seems the RSE just doesn't care whether the Feds have cloaking or not. Implying that the Treaty of Algeron and it's enforcement was not to important to the Rommies but sacrosanct to the Feddies. It's not uncharacteristic of the Federation to bend over backwards to appease other governments. As Admiral Pressman and others in this thread have stated, it does give the Romulans a tactical edge in the quadrant.

Also recall that in TNG "The Neutral Zone" (Earth year 2364), the Romualns had not been heard from for 50 years. The Treaty of Algeron was signed in Earth year 2311. TUC occured in 2293. This gives you a time table of events.

If the Romulans were able to ease some restrictions on cloaking for the Defiant. Maybe the Fed government could have lobbied for more freedom in reagrds to their own cloaking devices. It's not like Sisko didn't use the Defiant's cloak in Alpha, Beta and Gamma quadrants; when I believe he was only sanctioned to use it in the Gama Quad.
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Old June 26 2014, 06:45 AM   #20
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Re: Could the Fed have renegotiated the Treaty of Algeron...

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
I hope the Treaty of Algeron doesn't apply to the Federation following the Hobus Supernova of 2387.
The Romulas star system was destroyed, however there is no dialog that any other Romulan Star Empire planet/systems met a similar fate.

The Romulan Empire still exists.

If the American capital city were destroyed the country would continue, and all treaties would still be valid.

We could alway designate another capital.


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Old June 26 2014, 07:37 AM   #21
M.A.C.O.
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Re: Could the Fed have renegotiated the Treaty of Algeron...

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
I hope the Treaty of Algeron doesn't apply to the Federation following the Hobus Supernova of 2387.
The Romulas star system was destroyed, however there is no dialog that any other Romulan Star Empire planet/systems met a similar fate.

The Romulan Empire still exists.

If the American capital city were destroyed the country would continue, and all treaties would still be valid.

We could alway designate another capital.

Eh comparing one city being destroyed to a whole planet isn't a strong enough parallel. If say the contiguous US was destroyed and all that was left was Hawaii, Alaska, and the US territories (Guam, Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico); America could not operate from any point of strength to enforce it's treaties. The US's dealings with Russia (over Nuclear Nonproliferation, the crisis in Syria, and in the Ukraine), Iran (Isreal conflict and Iran's pursuit of nukes), Iraq, Afghanistan, North Korean etc. The balance of power would shift to much on the planet and America would not be in any position to enforce it's agenda or retaliate for infringed trusts and treaties. Seeing America's weakness, countries who were opposed to America's agenda would presumably move right along with their own agendas without fear of recompense. America's allies would rally to protect it, but with how disengaged Europe and Eastern nations are with the crisis' in the Middle East and the former USSR countries. I doubt they would get involved to support America's affairs in those matters.

Bringing this back to Star Trek; yes the RSE would still exist but I don't think they'd be in any position to retaliate on the Fed if Starfleet began deploying cloaking technology on their ships. Losing a planet would be tough, and we don't know enough about the planets that make up the RSE. Are they Romulan colonies or are they Romulan territories annexed through conquest and siege?

Last edited by M.A.C.O.; June 26 2014 at 10:25 AM.
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Old June 26 2014, 09:32 AM   #22
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Re: Could the Fed have renegotiated the Treaty of Algeron...

You're assuming that the rest of the Empire is somehow unimportant (or at least potentially disloyal). It's not out of the realm of possibility, sure, but it seems unlikely that an Empire propped up by only a single star system could become such a threat to the federation. Regardless, your assumptions are really no more or less valid than anyone else's.

I would say that your 'contintental US' analogy is ridiculously overblown - at most, i expect it would be more or less like the destruction of 1 state (certainly one of the larger, more strategically important ones - maybe New York, California or Texas) which would be a very large blow to the US, but certainly not an apocalypse that would instantly invalidate all american influence in the world. Moreover, the Romulans were actually implied to be more or less allies by the time of the supernova, and the Federation would not suddenly demand that its allies renegotiate all their treaties just because they were the victims of a catastrophe that weakened their political position. That's the kind of thing you would expect from the Ferengi or the Cardassians.
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Old June 26 2014, 11:09 AM   #23
M.A.C.O.
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Re: Could the Fed have renegotiated the Treaty of Algeron...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
You're assuming that the rest of the Empire is somehow unimportant (or at least potentially disloyal). It's not out of the realm of possibility, sure, but it seems unlikely that an Empire propped up by only a single star system could become such a threat to the federation. Regardless, your assumptions are really no more or less valid than anyone else's.

I would say that your 'contintental US' analogy is ridiculously overblown - at most, i expect it would be more or less like the destruction of 1 state (certainly one of the larger, more strategically important ones - maybe New York, California or Texas) which would be a very large blow to the US, but certainly not an apocalypse that would instantly invalidate all american influence in the world. Moreover, the Romulans were actually implied to be more or less allies by the time of the supernova, and the Federation would not suddenly demand that its allies renegotiate all their treaties just because they were the victims of a catastrophe that weakened their political position. That's the kind of thing you would expect from the Ferengi or the Cardassians.
Thinking about it now my original example may be too extreme. I was trying to articulate what losing a main country would be like with only territories left to represent it on the world stage. Maybe shrink it down to the Eastern seaboard. The 13 original colonies/states and Florida.

We've seen from TNG, DS9 and NEM that the Romulan home world is the head of the Empire. The power being with the senate and the military. Assuming that the bulk of Romulus' military and all their political leaders were wiped out by the supernova. That alone would leave a massive power vacuum within the RSE.

I think about TUC and how desperate the Klingons were for a peace settlement when Qo'nos was slatted to be uninhabitable. And how militant members of Starfleet and the representatives of the RSE sought to seize advantage of the Klingons weakness. Recall that Admiral Pressman (who was Captain Pressman at the time) conducted experiments into cloaking technology that were sanctioned by certain people at Starfleet command and Starfleet Security. That more militant wing of Starfleet could hypothetically advocate for revived cloaking research and development or just continue doing it in secret.

--EDIT
I have more to say but I can't find the words atm. I'm dealing with a massive migraine and will add more later.
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Old June 26 2014, 11:19 AM   #24
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Re: Could the Fed have renegotiated the Treaty of Algeron...

I agree there are elements of Starfleet that would potentially push for such. I disagree that the Federation Council or the Federation President would allow it under the circumstances. (Just as they did not allow it in TUC)

And, considering how much advanced warning was given it seems ludicrous to suggest that the bulk of the Romulan military was just sitting parked in orbit of Romulus. Obviously everyone was counting on Spock to stop the supernova, but only an idiot would just assume everything would work out. Evacuations would be underway. The Senate would likely have priority. Even if some of them elected to stay for whatever reasons, SOME of them will have escaped. And I rather doubt the military keeps that large a percentage of its forces posted in the Romulus system to begin with.
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Old June 26 2014, 11:27 AM   #25
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Re: Could the Fed have renegotiated the Treaty of Algeron...

^ You know what we need? We need more information about the Prime Timeline post-Romulus' destruction. We waited 4 years between ST09 and STID. We could've had 4 seasons of a new show during that time. Hell by the time STXIII comes out in 2016, that'll be 7 years/potentially seven seasons of a show. But no. Instead we have to sit on our hands for new movies about a new timeline. We only have comics, books and games like STO to give us incite into what is happening in the Prime Universe.

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Old June 26 2014, 08:45 PM   #26
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Re: Could the Fed have renegotiated the Treaty of Algeron...

It's a shame that we have no canon look into the the Prime timeline 2380-2387, then Hobus Nova onward...

Hell, they could have made a 7 season show about Riker and the Titan with the Hobus Nova going off in the series finale.
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Old June 26 2014, 09:03 PM   #27
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Re: Could the Fed have renegotiated the Treaty of Algeron...

I've read that Gene Roddenberry did not want the Federation "sneaking around." Thus, no cloaking devices for Starfleet vessels.
I agree that the Federation should take the high road and do everything out in the open. We don't know for sure, but Starfleet Intelligence may have utilized cloaking technology on numerous occasions. Such operations should rightly remain classified.
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Old June 27 2014, 09:47 AM   #28
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Re: Could the Fed have renegotiated the Treaty of Algeron...

MacLeod wrote: View Post
We know very little about the exact terms of the treaty of Algeron, sure perhaps the UFP could withdraw from the treaty and build cloaks but would be the consequences of that?
I'd suspect war. Starfleet would never get their cloaking technology off the ground the Romulans launched their attack. All they would need to do is be willing to sacrifice 100 or so ships with skeleton crews: cloaked ships entered UFP space, travel to systems which have with a member planet or key base, shut off the containment field around their power cores and unleash the destructive power of artificial black holes. With the UFP and Starfleet in chaos, they'd just have to either pick-off the stragglers or demand their total and unconditional surrender.

Well that's how I'd plan the attack, if I was Supreme Commander of the Romulan Fleet.
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Old June 27 2014, 09:49 AM   #29
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Re: Could the Fed have renegotiated the Treaty of Algeron...

Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
It's a shame that we have no canon look into the the Prime timeline 2380-2387, then Hobus Nova onward...

Hell, they could have made a 7 season show about Riker and the Titan with the Hobus Nova going off in the series finale.
That'd be a better series pilot, with a whole new ship and crew dealing with the fall out of the nova and the collapse of one of the major powers of the galaxy.
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Old June 27 2014, 05:46 PM   #30
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Re: Could the Fed have renegotiated the Treaty of Algeron...

The Pocket Books novels are now into late 2385. The Hobus Supernova should be coming up soon in the novelverse.
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