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Old June 17 2014, 06:41 AM   #16
od0_ital
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Re: Understanding Hoshi's Rank

Everyone has to start from somewhere. Obviously Archer did stuff to move up through the ranks prior to his assignment to the NX-01, we just didn't see a lot of it, just like every other captain in a Star Trek show. The most we ever saw about a commandin' officer's past was Sisko's, thanks to the Wolf 359 flashback.

As for Hoshi, seems to me that since the NX-01 was new, and most of the crew were of a low officer rank or enlisted, ensign seemed about right for her position.

Keep in mind that the senior conn officer/pilot, who was supposed to have the most first hand experience in the areas where the ship was travelin', was also only an ensign.

That the two were still at that rank in the 'These are the Voyages...' holoprogram is idiotic, but that's a whole other thing.
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Old June 21 2014, 12:47 AM   #17
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Re: Understanding Hoshi's Rank

od0_ital wrote: View Post
we just didn't see a lot of it, just like every other captain in a Star Trek show.
Cadet Kirk was part of a peace mission to Axanar. Ensign Kirk was posted to the USS Republic. Young Lieutenant Kirk was assigned to a planetary survey mission on Neural. Lieutenant Kirk was the tactical officer aboard the USS Farragut. There is a hole between there and when Kirk is a Captain, however Kirk's past shows that he was working his way up the promotion ladder and had a series of assignments.

The non-canon backstory created for Kirk by Roddenberry had Kirk in command of a "destroyer type vessel" prior to the Enterprise.

He wasn't just give command of his Enterprise out of nowhere.

Like Archer was.

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Old June 21 2014, 05:48 AM   #18
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Re: Understanding Hoshi's Rank

^

Archer mentioned servin' aboard a Vulcan ship in an episode. He was seen as a test pilot / ground control for the warp five experiments along with Tucker.

Obviously he was somewhere before 'Broken Bow', and he is just as likely to have worked his way up the ranks, as well. It just wasn't shown, much like the other captains.

And clearly he was Admiral Forrest's top pick for the position, and since Admiral Forrest ran Starfleet Command, he was the one who decided who got the NX-01.

Picard took command of the Stargazer durin' an emergency and got to keep it for a couple of decades. He went out for milk and cigarettes for almost a decade before gettin' the Enterprise-D, and then he got the next one, too.

Sisko was an engineer who got moved to command by Leyton, and then served as the first officer of the Saratoga before workin' at Utopia Planitia and then gettin' command of DS9.

Janeway served as a science officer under Owen Paris, and dependin' on which episode ya watch, she had a command before Voyager, or Voyager was her first command.
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Old June 21 2014, 08:13 AM   #19
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Re: Understanding Hoshi's Rank

od0_ital wrote: View Post
Everyone has to start from somewhere. Obviously Archer did stuff to move up through the ranks prior to his assignment to the NX-01, we just didn't see a lot of it, just like every other captain in a Star Trek show. The most we ever saw about a commandin' officer's past was Sisko's, thanks to the Wolf 359 flashback.

As for Hoshi, seems to me that since the NX-01 was new, and most of the crew were of a low officer rank or enlisted, ensign seemed about right for her position.

Keep in mind that the senior conn officer/pilot, who was supposed to have the most first hand experience in the areas where the ship was travelin', was also only an ensign.

That the two were still at that rank in the 'These are the Voyages...' holoprogram is idiotic, but that's a whole other thing.
We did learn about about Picard's past as well,
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Old June 21 2014, 09:43 AM   #20
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Re: Understanding Hoshi's Rank

od0_ital wrote: View Post
It just wasn't shown, much like the other captains.
Except it isn't "like the other Captains," because in their cases we do learn of their career backstories.^

Archer mentioned servin' aboard a Vulcan ship in an episode.
I'd forgotten about that, it was Breaking the Ice, but Archer didn't serve aboard the Vulcan ship, he was just a passager.

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Old June 21 2014, 10:59 PM   #21
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Re: Understanding Hoshi's Rank

We don't really learn anything approaching the "Kirk standard" of career data on any of the other skippers. Sisko is as much a blank slate as Archer, jumping from engineer to space station command (and almost back) without appreciable filling of gaps. Picard's youth between "Tapestry" and the Stargazer command is covered by two remarks by Q in the aforementioned episode, one dealing with away team heroics at unknown rank or age or time, another dealing with that taking-over-the-bridge incident again at unknown rank or age or time. And Janeway's past is as spelled out by odO_ital.

So it is exactly as said: "much like the other captains". Archer is no more or less an unknown quantity - it's merely that we have an exceptional wealth of information on the career of Kirk and Kirk alone.

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Old June 21 2014, 11:47 PM   #22
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Re: Understanding Hoshi's Rank

Bad Thoughts wrote: View Post
From what I can remember, Hoshi:
  • earned a degree with honors from a university independently of SF training,
  • went through SF academy,
  • held a university professorship (meaning she probably published in her field),
  • was an expert in a field that SF desperately needed experts,
  • programmed a piece of machinery that SF depended on.

Adding all that up, Hoshi should have been a lieutenant, first class, at the very least. I suspect that for the Beebs, calling her an ensign was merely a way of saying that she was green. (Unless there's a different explanation ...)
Much has been said about the nature of her responsibilities on board the ship, which -- while fairly important to the mission itself -- are actually very limited in SCOPE. She simply doesn't have enough to do for her to rate that kind of rank; she needs to be an officer, but there's no reason for her to ever tell anyone what to do because she is a linguist and a translator and not much else.

The broader issue is that whatever Starfleet's later incarnations might be, Earth Starfleet is DEFINITELY not a military entity and by "Broken Bow" is basically the NOAA of space exploration. The only reason ANY of them have a rank is related to pay grade and responsibility and probably have nothing at all to do with merit.

Archer is perhaps the ultimate example. He has no deep space experience and by all accounts has never even been outside of the solar system. The only reason he's in command of the ship AT ALL is because he is familiar with the design and piloted the NX-Alpha prototype. Meanwhile, Travis -- who HAS practical deep space experience on an active starship and, unlike Archer, even has hands-on experience dealing with alien cultures -- holds the rank of Ensign, because his only job on the ship is that of helm officer (and like Hoshii, he isn't in charge of anyone else and his rank reflects this).
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