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Future of Trek Discussion of future Trek projects.

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Old June 15 2014, 10:29 PM   #91
Merry Christmas
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Re: Should a New Star Trek show be willing to kill off major character

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
What I was (poorly) referring to is the kind of brutal, frankly sickening deaths producers seem to assume that audiences squeal with glee over.
We know TPTB casually killed off six billion Vulcans for the fun shock value, being crush to death in a collapsing planet sounds "messy." To many people in Trek fandom Vulcan is a second home world.

And how many people died horribly in San Fransisco when a starship sickled down their buildings like so much harvested wheat? An impressive special effect, but it did little to advance the plot.

Khan's stated target was Starfleet, but it appeared that he actually plowed into the civilian portion of the city.

More fun that way huh.

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Old June 15 2014, 10:31 PM   #92
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: Should a New Star Trek show be willing to kill off major character

T'Girl wrote: View Post
LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
What I was (poorly) referring to is the kind of brutal, frankly sickening deaths producers seem to assume that audiences squeal with glee over.
We know TPTB casually killed off six billion Vulcans for the fun shock value, being crush to death in a collapsing planet sounds "messy." To many people in Trek fandom Vulcan is a second home world.

And how many people died horribly in San Fransisco when a starship sickled down their buildings like so much harvested wheat? An impressive special effect, but it did little to advance the plot.

Khan's stated target was Starfleet, but it appeared that he actually plowed into the civilian portion of the city. More fun that way huh.

T'girl gets it!

*hug from afar*
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Old June 15 2014, 11:50 PM   #93
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Re: Should a New Star Trek show be willing to kill off major character

I think that no one being safe would heighten the drama and make for a better story, but I would want any important deaths to be well thought out. Too much death makes the loss cheap, and once that character is gone, they should be gone, barring a really clever work around - and that would have to be damn clever not to be a cheap cop out.
I can't help but think how overused important character deaths have become in comics. It seems like every few months there's a big death, and they always come back within a few years, so that the deaths have become just a cheap ploy that it's difficult to make it mean anything, not when no one's expecting the death to stick.
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Old June 15 2014, 11:57 PM   #94
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: Should a New Star Trek show be willing to kill off major character

borgboy wrote: View Post
I can't help but think how overused important character deaths have become in comics. It seems like every few months there's a big death, and they always come back within a few years, so that the deaths have become just a cheap ploy that it's difficult to make it mean anything, not when no one's expecting the death to stick.
borgboy gets it, too!!
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Old June 16 2014, 03:04 AM   #95
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Re: Should a New Star Trek show be willing to kill off major character

T'Girl wrote: View Post
LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
What I was (poorly) referring to is the kind of brutal, frankly sickening deaths producers seem to assume that audiences squeal with glee over.
We know TPTB casually killed off six billion Vulcans for the fun shock value, being crush to death in a collapsing planet sounds "messy." To many people in Trek fandom Vulcan is a second home world.

And how many people died horribly in San Fransisco when a starship sickled down their buildings like so much harvested wheat? An impressive special effect, but it did little to advance the plot.

Khan's stated target was Starfleet, but it appeared that he actually plowed into the civilian portion of the city.

More fun that way huh.
As opposed to all the planets that snuffed it in TOS.

Seriously its a little funny how if random planet X with its billions of inhabitants buys the farm l, but a planet the fans actually give a crap about get obliterated they treat it like sacrilege.
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Old June 16 2014, 03:21 AM   #96
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: Should a New Star Trek show be willing to kill off major character

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Seriously its a little funny how if random planet X with its billions of inhabitants buys the farm l, but a planet the fans actually give a crap about get obliterated they treat it like sacrilege.
Good point.

I think Spock sort of said it best: "I've noticed that about your people, Doctor. You find it easier to understand the death of one than the death of a million. You speak about the objective hardness of the Vulcan heart, yet how little room there seems to be in yours."
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Old June 16 2014, 12:15 PM   #97
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Re: Should a New Star Trek show be willing to kill off major character

What Walking Dead do isn't killing their major characters like flies. But to give the feel of desperate life of their major character in the forsaken world. They give us a feeling that every characters can dead anytime (even when they were always survive), and when they survived, it gave us a relieved / happiness; because our hero / heroine will return in the next episode.

So basically, Walking Dead is raping their characters and push them all into the wall. Sometime, I feel sorry for them (the characters) and hope that they will find a safer place for their live.

Star Trek was different. They didn't give us the desperate feeling like what we feel from Walking Dead. And they didn't give us a massive characters conflict like in "Lost". They even lack of character development. The season 1 Kirk is the same as the last TOS Star Trek Kirk. The season 1 Picard is the same as the last TNG movie Picard. They are not change. That's why, sometime I want to see Picard as Admiral rather than the "forever' Captain.
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Old June 16 2014, 03:00 PM   #98
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Re: Should a New Star Trek show be willing to kill off major character

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
What I was (poorly) referring to is the kind of brutal, frankly sickening deaths producers seem to assume that audiences squeal with glee over.
We know TPTB casually killed off six billion Vulcans for the fun shock value, being crush to death in a collapsing planet sounds "messy." To many people in Trek fandom Vulcan is a second home world.

And how many people died horribly in San Fransisco when a starship sickled down their buildings like so much harvested wheat? An impressive special effect, but it did little to advance the plot.

Khan's stated target was Starfleet, but it appeared that he actually plowed into the civilian portion of the city.

More fun that way huh.
As opposed to all the planets that snuffed it in TOS.

Seriously its a little funny how if random planet X with its billions of inhabitants buys the farm l, but a planet the fans actually give a crap about get obliterated they treat it like sacrilege.
"Opernation--Annihilhate" comes to mind. There's a reason it wasn't titled "Operation--Peace and Tranquility!"

They killed off Kirk's brother AND his sister-in-law . . . and a whole string of obscure alien planets.

And I'm not sure blowing up Vulcan marks some pernicious new trend. Branching out a bit, Star Wars blew up Alderaan blew up way back in 1977. And a Doomsday Bomb destroyed the Planet of the Apes a few years earlier. And then there's Krypton and When Worlds Collide and probably a few more doomed planets in "Flash Gordon" or E. E.E Smith or whatever.

Science fiction tends to be hard on unsuspecting planets. You've got Death Stars and Doomsday Machines and runaway asteroids and plagues of neural parasites . . .
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Old June 16 2014, 04:08 PM   #99
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Re: Should a New Star Trek show be willing to kill off major character

Gretnablue wrote: View Post
My Screen writing lecture told a good rule, if you can still think of story ideas for a character, don't kill him/her off. Otherwise you’re wasting potential and playing audiences for chums, something that can backfire on you very easily.
Your "lecture" was a fool.
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Old June 16 2014, 04:38 PM   #100
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Re: Should a New Star Trek show be willing to kill off major character

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
Kind of disheartening that life just isn't sacred anymore...
But fictional life has NEVER been sacred. It's not like this is a new trend in movies or novels or theater. Just ask Old Yeller or Little Nell. At most, it's a departure for American TV dramas as we've known them since the fifties. (Although I seem to recall the body count being pretty high on The Twilight Zone and The Outer Limits.)

At the risk of getting pretentious, the Greeks didn't balk at killing off main characters, and neither did Shakespeare, Dickens, etc. And certainly it's nothing new to science fiction: Remember Dr. Morbius in Forbidden Planet? Taylor, Nova, Cornelius, and Zira in the Planet of the Apes movies? And pretty much every single movie version of The Fly or I am Legend?

Writers shouldn't be afraid to kill characters when necessary. We need to be ruthless that way.
I didn't articulate my thoughts well, Greg. Allow me to clarify:

You're right, death has always been a story-telling tool. Heck, I was watching Leave It to Beaver not long ago, and Ward and June were deciding whether they wanted to go to the movies, or stay home. Ward said something like "Well, we can go to the movies and watch people kill each other, or stay home and watch people kill each other on television!"
Hah! The more things change . . . .

By coincidence, I've been watching lots of vintage shows on MeTV lately: Thriller, Alfred Hitchcock Presents, Perry Mason, etc. Ward and June certainly did have plenty of homicide to choose from back in the day!
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Old June 16 2014, 07:12 PM   #101
MacLeod
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Re: Should a New Star Trek show be willing to kill off major character

Perhaps one of the issues with TV is that some people might tune into a show because of a certain character they like, and if you kill them off you could potentially loose audiance, so perhaps that is why they play it safe. Of coure in some shows, anyone can die so why does it work for some shows and not for others?
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Old June 16 2014, 10:48 PM   #102
Shaka Zulu
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Re: Should a New Star Trek show be willing to kill off major character

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
What I was (poorly) referring to is the kind of brutal, frankly sickening deaths producers seem to assume that audiences squeal with glee over.
We know TPTB casually killed off six billion Vulcans for the fun shock value, being crush to death in a collapsing planet sounds "messy." To many people in Trek fandom Vulcan is a second home world.

And how many people died horribly in San Fransisco when a starship sickled down their buildings like so much harvested wheat? An impressive special effect, but it did little to advance the plot.

Khan's stated target was Starfleet, but it appeared that he actually plowed into the civilian portion of the city.

More fun that way huh.
As opposed to all the planets that snuffed it in TOS.

Seriously its a little funny how if random planet X with its billions of inhabitants buys the farm l, but a planet the fans actually give a crap about get obliterated they treat it like sacrilege.
Reminds me of what I said about Trip Tucker dying-everybody hated that, but wouldn't have cared if it were somebody like Mayweather.
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Old June 16 2014, 10:50 PM   #103
BigKrampus
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Re: Should a New Star Trek show be willing to kill off major character

I didn't mind Trip Tucker dying one bit.
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Old June 17 2014, 05:57 AM   #104
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: Should a New Star Trek show be willing to kill off major character

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
"Opernation--Annihilhate" comes to mind. There's a reason it wasn't titled "Operation--Peace and Tranquility!"

They killed off Kirk's brother AND his sister-in-law . . . and a whole string of obscure alien planets.
Correct me if I'm wrong, Greg (may I call you Greg?), but in the original script, didn't Kirk end up destroying all life on the planet?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Perhaps one of the issues with TV is that some people might tune into a show because of a certain character they like, and if you kill them off you could potentially loose audiance, so perhaps that is why they play it safe. Of coure in some shows, anyone can die so why does it work for some shows and not for others?
That is a great question!
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Old June 17 2014, 12:31 PM   #105
grendelsbayne
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Re: Should a New Star Trek show be willing to kill off major character

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Perhaps one of the issues with TV is that some people might tune into a show because of a certain character they like, and if you kill them off you could potentially loose audiance, so perhaps that is why they play it safe. Of coure in some shows, anyone can die so why does it work for some shows and not for others?
I would say, on the whole, what you're describing is the way tv studios USED to look at the issue. Whereas now, most shows (not counting those that have almost no potential for danger in the first place) have swung completely in the opposite direction with the idea that killing people off is not only acceptable, but maybe even necessary sometimes.

As for why it might work more for some shows than others (and it certainly is not something that every show ever should be doing), that's simple: some shows are very much about death and danger. How could anyone take the Walking Dead seriously if none of the main characters ever died? Lamest apocalypse ever. Who would really be invested in Game of Thrones if the stakes only really amounted to 'You win or maybe you get randomly exiled to some little fortress somewhere so that you can return triumphantly a few episodes later'?

Ultimately, the possibility of death should be real in any story that involves high risk (including space travel, ie, star trek). But it should only ever become reality when it truly drives the story forward - not just because someone thinks killing characters is the only way to keep people invested in the narrative. For shows like GOT or WD, death IS a major part of what the story is about, and therefore it must be present almost all the time. For star trek, the story has other things that should be focused on, at least most of the time.
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