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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old June 14 2014, 11:16 PM   #16
Mytran
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Re: Great new TMP pics!

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
[*]We are probably looking at the first engine core extension painting intended for a scene that didn't make it into the film. Either Bob Wise wanted to shoot Kirk's entry differently or the original plan (a camera pan from the lower core to the upper engine room level / physical set) didn't work out because it became too obvious that the extension was fake (this was still the "analog" age, so how this would have looked on film depended entirely on shooting it first and then evaluating the footage)
[*]Instead, they decided to shoot the engine core extension from a higher point of view with a moderate camera pan that wouldn't betray the intended illusion ("play it safer") and it worked. Possibly a late decision, thus Ben Resella didn't have time to include as many cylindrical connecting segments as he did in the first extension painting.
I think this is largely the case, and quite possibly for the reasons you suggested (there's certainly a distinct difference in the POV of the shot). The port/starboard difference between the early photo and the final one used in TMP also made me look twice. An interesting feature of both versions is that the "rooms below" are rectangular, not square; the port/starboard areas have an extra bit of decking adjacent to the transparent floor, allowing us to orientate both photos quite effectively. Here, the painting is designed to be viewed from the foreward/port location, probably preceding this pan up to Kirk (which survived to the final film)



There's a second possibility too: As discussed at length in Blssdwlf's thread, Kirk's apparent entry from a door in the fore (they just reused the door from the main Engine Room after all) doesn't really match with the footage we see on screen (Kirk enters from the aft side of the room in fact).

The Resella picture on the other hand would fit into a situation with Kirk arriving on the forward part of Upper Engineering and peering over from a fore/port position. The drawback with this is that Scotty would be masked by the railings.

Or maybe - the photo we have is simply mirrored for some reason? It matches the final version much better then!

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Old June 15 2014, 10:49 AM   #17
Robert Comsol
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Re: Great new TMP pics!

I also considered the possibility that the Resella picture might be mirrored, but that would have been the only one in the series, IIRC.

The problem remains that the illusion of the extension painting in the film only works from one particular camera fixed position. Already on the previous thread page we have seen an example how a rather small deviation from that position did "bend" the engine core. Thus it's impossible that the Resella picture could have been taken from an even farther position and still maintain the illusion of straight vertical engine core (add to this we would have been able to still see at least one more cylindrical segment).




Maurice wrote: View Post
Different angles of stuff we've seen a dozen times.
According to the reactions of the BBS members participating in this thread (members that just didn't develop an interest for TMP images yesterday), "we" have not seen this stuff a dozen times.

Bob
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Old June 16 2014, 01:11 AM   #18
arch101
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Re: Great new TMP pics!

Maurice wrote: View Post
Different angles of stuff we've seen a dozen times.
According to the reactions of the BBS members participating in this thread (members that just didn't develop an interest for TMP images yesterday), "we" have not seen this stuff a dozen times.

Bob[/QUOTE]

I've been a rabid TMP fan since the film came out. I even have some of the old "Inside Star Trek" fan mags from the late '70s that have some nifty and rare pre-production pics and art.
I've never seen this stuff before. Glad it's here and stirring debate.
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Old June 16 2014, 03:13 AM   #19
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Re: Great new TMP pics!

I won't speak for Maurice, but count me among the crowd on these pics; thanks Mytran! The early engineering, corridor, and rec deck backdrop photos were the highlights for me.

Re: The corridors -- I'm still waiting to see photos of the pre-TMP Phase II corridors. The one labeled "New Movie Version 1978" must be very shortly after the new corridors were assembled around the original Phase II walls (which as I understand remained behind the TMP/TNG walls until they were demolished).

Re: Rec deck backdrop -- The only other photo I've seen of the backdrop was from a low, side angle (tried but couldn't find it in my collection; anyone have it handy?). Interesting that the nacelle has the red striping that was removed during the Trumbull mods (and prominent on the Mike Minor preproduction art). Had Wise not decided to obscure the backdrop with extras during the briefing scene, Trumbull would have had to retain the stripes to match the live-action rec deck footage.

It's interesting that these photos are not from the Paramount archives but rather from a staffer's personal collection (reference shots, etc.). Maybe that's where we're going to get most of our previously unseen behind-the-scenes material going forward.
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Old June 16 2014, 03:56 AM   #20
Vger23
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Re: Great new TMP pics!

The sad thing is that this beautiful engineering/intermix chamber set was only seen in TMP and TWOK. Does anyone know why that is? This was my favorite Enterprise set from the films, but it only made appearances in those two movies.
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Old June 16 2014, 07:39 AM   #21
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Re: Great new TMP pics!

Seriously, all I'm saying is there are no big revelations here. I've not seen these particular photos, but they don't add any new information other than a more square on view of the backdrop and the engineering set as unfinished.

Speaking of that, I think some people misinterpret the photo looking down the core, because the shot is clearly from above the set (probably from the catwalks), not from withinin the set (as per Kirk's POV downshot in the film). If you count the number of ring sets, the set contained 5 (including the one at the "ceiling" above Kirk as be gets into the lift), which is exactly the same as in the "from the rafters" shot. it looks like the painting has been started in that photo, but it's far from done.
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Old June 16 2014, 07:40 AM   #22
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Re: Great new TMP pics!

A small corner of it was reused for TSFS in Excelsior's engine room. After that the Enterprise self destructed so there wasn't any way to use it in TVH! The set was then modified for use in TNG so there was no way to use the original design in future movies
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Old June 16 2014, 10:25 AM   #23
Robert Comsol
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Re: Great new TMP pics!

Maurice wrote: View Post
Speaking of that, I think some people misinterpret the photo looking down the core, because the shot is clearly from above the set (probably from the catwalks), not from withinin the set (as per Kirk's POV downshot in the film). ... It looks like the painting has been started in that photo, but it's far from done.


It's not the one from the final film, for reasons I mentioned in post # 17.

If that's not good enough, may I please direct your attention to the upper engine core tube element. The center of the tube element is level with the upper catwalk we see in the Resella image.

Compare this to the actual studio set where we can clearly see that the upper engine core tube element is above the engine room main level.

Further, notice the top cylindrical segment in the Resella image. These segments always come in two, but here it's only one.

For the forced perspective extension in the final film we somewhat excluded that it was a matte painting, but with this particular Resella image I'm having doubts.
Notice the outlines (pencil?) on the outer tube elements in the Resella image. None of the shots of the actual and physical studio set ever featured those.

Bob

P.S.

In case the Resella image is a static painting, I could imagine that the original idea was to have Kirk look down at something - cut to - static Resella painting - cut back to - live action footage. Maybe it just didn't convey the illusion that got realized with the fake perspective floor canvas painting in the final film.

Isn't there something mentioned in the publications regarding the engine set construction and filming that could help us evaluate and appreciate the unusual Resella painting?
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; June 16 2014 at 01:42 PM.
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Old June 16 2014, 01:09 PM   #24
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Re: Great new TMP pics!

Mytran wrote: View Post
A small corner of it was reused for TSFS in Excelsior's engine room. After that the Enterprise self destructed so there wasn't any way to use it in TVH!
Well, hypothetically, they could've used it for the engine room of a different ship again. But from a budgetary standpoint, it would've been an unnecessary expense because they were able to convey the information about other Starfleet ships losing power by using only the bridge set. After TMP's cost overruns, the subsequent movies were shot on tight budgets, and the engine room set, with its elaborate practical lighting in the intermix chamber and the careful camera angles needed to sell the forced-perspective illusion, must've been a complicated and expensive set to film on.

And of course the refitted TNG configuration of the engine room set was used in TFF and TUC -- and in the latter case they did a really bad job of hiding the TNG-style design.
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Old June 16 2014, 01:51 PM   #25
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Re: Great new TMP pics!

As I recall, didn't the core 'tube' get modified and reused for Voyager's warp core?
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Old June 16 2014, 02:00 PM   #26
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Re: Great new TMP pics!

Christopher wrote: View Post
And of course the refitted TNG configuration of the engine room set was used in TFF and TUC -- and in the latter case they did a really bad job of hiding the TNG-style design.
Engineering in STV: TFF was just the Jefferies Tube set with some consoles and an angled glowing pipe in the background.

I like how they implied that the horizontal intermix chamber was just off camera.
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Old June 16 2014, 02:25 PM   #27
Robert Comsol
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Re: Great new TMP pics!

How comes? I had the impression that both the brig and the bottom part of this "turbo shaft" were connected by this Jefferies Tube somewhere near the very bottom or keel of the ship (which would also explain to some extent the misalignment of the forced perspective backdrop / tube extension painting).

The horizontal engine core feeding the warp engines would probably be much higher up.

Bob
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Old June 17 2014, 06:44 PM   #28
Ryann866
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Re: Great new TMP pics!

Joe_Atari wrote: View Post
I won't speak for Maurice, but count me among the crowd on these pics; thanks Mytran! The early engineering, corridor, and rec deck backdrop photos were the highlights for me.

Re: The corridors -- I'm still waiting to see photos of the pre-TMP Phase II corridors. The one labeled "New Movie Version 1978" must be very shortly after the new corridors were assembled around the original Phase II walls (which as I understand remained behind the TMP/TNG walls until they were demolished).

Re: Rec deck backdrop -- The only other photo I've seen of the backdrop was from a low, side angle (tried but couldn't find it in my collection; anyone have it handy?). Interesting that the nacelle has the red striping that was removed during the Trumbull mods (and prominent on the Mike Minor preproduction art). Had Wise not decided to obscure the backdrop with extras during the briefing scene, Trumbull would have had to retain the stripes to match the live-action rec deck footage.

It's interesting that these photos are not from the Paramount archives but rather from a staffer's personal collection (reference shots, etc.). Maybe that's where we're going to get most of our previously unseen behind-the-scenes material going forward.
I think the third engine room photo is a snapshot of the actual scenic backing that was placed on the floor of the engine room set. Either that, or it could be a preliminary sketch or mockup of what the forced perspective painting would look like.

As far as the Phase II corridors -- you can make out the flat wall of the original corridor behind the lower section of angular bulkhead beams in the 4th photo ( of the unfinished corridor, where the floor level lights would eventually be installed):

Also in this shot of the TNG transporter room being converted into the Voyager set you can see the backside of the original Phase II corridor wall at the left of the image.

It's just old wood, sure, but you can see how they would have been flat walls very similar to TOS corridors. When Phase II became TMP, then built those "A" frame bulkheads inside the Phase II walls and attached the aluminum panels to them, rather than scrap the existing corridor sets and start over. Those sets stayed pretty much intact until Voyager.

Any shots of the construction of TMP engine room always thrill me. It's one of my favorite Trek sets.
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Old June 18 2014, 12:00 AM   #29
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Re: Great new TMP pics!

Ryann866 wrote: View Post
Any shots of the construction of TMP engine room always thrill me. It's one of my favorite Trek sets.
hells yes
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Old June 18 2014, 10:05 AM   #30
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Great new TMP pics!

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
How comes? I had the impression that both the brig and the bottom part of this "turbo shaft" were connected by this Jefferies Tube somewhere near the very bottom or keel of the ship (which would also explain to some extent the misalignment of the forced perspective backdrop / tube extension painting).

The horizontal engine core feeding the warp engines would probably be much higher up.

Bob
Who says corridors like that are only at the bottom of the ship? We saw similar pipe-filled service corridors at the top of the USS Defiant's Jefferies Tube in "In a Mirror, Darkly". I think they're throughout the engineering hull.
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