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Old June 12 2014, 08:33 PM   #2596
Professor Zoom
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Dennis wrote: View Post
Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
2. If it was rote and facile, then they weren't doing their jobs.
That's an assertion up there with the pitching coach's instruction to "throw strikes and don't give 'em anything good to hit."
Fair enough.


They did their jobs by making a really different choice. It worked.
I disagree. And I'm not alone.


Since I appreciated the movie as it was I haven't given any thought to what I'd have done differently.

Now that I think about it, I just about never look at someone else's work and say "this is how I would have done it."
Even work you don't like?
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Old June 12 2014, 08:36 PM   #2597
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post

What "How It Should Have Ended" forgets is that Jor-El only came up with the phantom drive collision solution AFTER he plugged in to the ship. Without that act, it would be like Superman coming up with a solution that does not follow anything we saw previously. Also at the time Superman had no reason to mistrust Zod or his intentions. It was only after Zod used the dream machine on Supes did Clark learn of his sinister plan.
Because he didn't talk to the guy that KNEW Zod. Which seems kind of silly, right? Why didn't he talk to Jor-El?


It was a creative choice to have Superman fight the world engine and for Metropolis to be pancaked by the gravity beam. What is the alternative to that?
He could've taken on the one in Metropolis... tried to save lives while fighting Zod, etc.

I think for me the problem with the third act was that it just went SO far, that it became relentless grim. And not seeing Superman TRY to save people just... it felt like a video game of punch, punch, punch, building fall, thousands murdered and then... "Hey everybody, look at me, I'm a reporter!"

I think, in the end, if there was an emotional recognition by the movie of the thousands that were killed... Supes had more tears for Zod than the thousands that died... I needed something more than that glib moment with the satellite or whatever it was at the end with the General.




1. You don't know that.
2. If we was rote and facile, then they weren't doing their jobs.


Let's have yet another Superman story without human consequences, because Superman can fix anything.
I'm not suggesting a story without human consequences. The How It Should've Ended cartoon, of course, does. But, it's also meant to be funny. I brought it up because i'm tired of hearing, "there's no other way!" Um. It's a fictional construct. Of course there are other ways. This was a choice.


Hey, he can spin the world backward and un-destroy Metropolis!
Sure. That's a bad idea, but, yeah. That's a way. I would say it's been done, it doesn't seem to fit his powers, but, that's one way. Are there others?

I know you're a writer, are you saying there are absolutely no other creative solutions that still has human consequences yet addresses many of the concerns people have?

Now, I know you like the end of the movie, you are satisfied, but, what if, the studio comes to you and says, we want a rewrite of the third act. We like some of it, but, we want Superman to feel more heroic. What would you do, as a writer hired to do a job?
Professor Zoom I agree with all your points. The writers could have created a scenario which both challenged Superman and kept the integrity of the character. For it's time, the first two Superman films did exactly that. It was Goyer's job to do it, and he failed.
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Old June 12 2014, 08:45 PM   #2598
Dennis
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
Dennis wrote: View Post
Since I appreciated the movie as it was I haven't given any thought to what I'd have done differently.

Now that I think about it, I just about never look at someone else's work and say "this is how I would have done it."
Even work you don't like?
No, almost never. If I don't like something I usually just move on to something else.

I don't find most criticism worthwhile. Technical criticism is useful - "this doesn't pay off because it's not set up properly in the first scene" - but reactive criticism is not. The latter generally boils down to another writer or artist having made the thing they wanted to make and not the thing I wanted them to make, and what's the point of that? My taste aligns enough with theirs to enjoy their work, or it doesn't.

As far as disappointed expectations go, my experience is that disappointment has less to do with setting one's expectations too high than it does with setting them too specifically, so I try not to do that.

With rare exception I don't see the superhero mega-movie genre as having much merit beyond an amusement park thrill ride, which is good enough. It's a largely vapid but commercially successful exercise that will continue to rise and eventually decline as the novelty wears out in favor of some other kind of visceral, visually immersive spectacle . That is distinct from whatever virtues the superhero tale holds in its native medium, comics.
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Old June 12 2014, 09:04 PM   #2599
Garak
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
Garak wrote: View Post
Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
Wow, really? Thanks for that astonishing insight. It's almost like that's exactly what I fucking said.
Not really, no.
Considering I'm the one who wrote it, and I know exactly what I said and what I meant, yes. Yes it really was.

Mister Fandango wrote:
And, again, it's the writing people are complaining about. The writers created the situations. The writers decided he was going to kill Zod. The writers fucked Superman up.
Try reading everything except the last sentence which I excluded above, since, apparently, that's fucking throwing you two.
So now you want us to judge a portion of your post now and not the actual post you wrote? Well that sure is convenient.

Because, yes, that's clearly saying that it's the character's fault and not the writer's.
.....we know.

You're
the ones trying to rationalize it from the character's point of view, as if he had no option but to do what he did.
All I've said is "no, not really".

It does seem pretty logical to helpfully point out to someone so obviously confused by the relationship of characters vs actual real life writers.

Not me. I'm blaming the god damned writers, because the character has nothing to do with it.
Why does it sound like you're having an angry cry? Take a deep breath, son.
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Old June 12 2014, 10:22 PM   #2600
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Okay, I think this story is utter BS but gonna post it anyway. It's being claimed that WB has its schedule laid out, much like how Marvel and Disney have done with the MCU & new Star Wars movies.

I'm not expert but BvS was announced almost a year ago, Affleck was cast in late august and a director,writer and shooting schedule have all been in place. But we are expected to believe that Shazam, with no writer, director, star or schedule will come out a mere 2 months later? Hard to see it happening unless it's a much smaller budgeted, less spectacular film. Here's the link anyway:

http://geektyrant.com/news/warner-br...ne-up-revealed
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Old June 12 2014, 10:24 PM   #2601
davejames
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

^ Hmm, not sure how much of that will actually happen, but it certainly sounds promising at least. Especially the WW movie, Flash/GL teamup, and standalone MOS sequel.
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Old June 12 2014, 10:27 PM   #2602
Dennis
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Since it's coming from Nikki Finke it's unlikely that it's complete BS. And two years, give or take, is not too much of a rush for a film like Shazam!

That said, a story like this is certainly click-bait for her new site so one has to take that motive into account.
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Old June 12 2014, 10:43 PM   #2603
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

A Green Lantern Flash team-up would be an absolute dream come true. If that's the case though, it would indicate that they're going to use Hal in Justice League, instead of John as many have speculated. Any team-up between Green Lantern and Flash has to be Hal and Barry. John and Barry would make no sense.
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Old June 12 2014, 10:50 PM   #2604
Dennis
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Well, they can combine Hal and John.

Neither Hal nor John have strongly dramatic personal backstories, but maybe introducing them in Justice League rather than doing more origin stuff will sidestep that.
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Old June 12 2014, 10:50 PM   #2605
davejames
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Well they certainly got a lot of mileage out of Barry and John Stewart on JLU.
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Old June 12 2014, 10:53 PM   #2606
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Kinda surprised there's no mention of a solo Affleck-Batman movie in there. Much as I was hoping for a MOS sequel, I thought for sure we'd see another Batman movie before we ever saw another solo Superman movie.
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Old June 12 2014, 10:55 PM   #2607
Dennis
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

davejames wrote: View Post
Well they certainly got a lot of mileage out of Barry and John Stewart on JLU.
Sure. And if they're looking for more diversity in casting the Justice League and DCU movies there's no logical or in-story reason that Hal Jordan has to be a white guy. That said, there's also no reason that John Stewart and Barry Allen can't be close pals.

I want to see some variation of of New52's Hal calling Barry up to tell him about being in a fight with Batman - Barry reacted with "Batman? He's real?" and Hal responded "Yeah, and he's a real asshole."
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Old June 12 2014, 11:02 PM   #2608
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Dennis wrote: View Post

No, almost never. If I don't like something I usually just move on to something else.

I don't find most criticism worthwhile. Technical criticism is useful - "this doesn't pay off because it's not set up properly in the first scene" - but reactive criticism is not. The latter generally boils down to another writer or artist having made the thing they wanted to make and not the thing I wanted them to make, and what's the point of that? My taste aligns enough with theirs to enjoy their work, or it doesn't.
I guess what I was asking you to do was technical criticism repair, so to speak. What are the creative solutions to solve some of the creative problems? (Though, obviously, some disagree with what are or are not creative problems.


As far as disappointed expectations go, my experience is that disappointment has less to do with setting one's expectations too high than it does with setting them too specifically, so I try not to do that.
For me, high expectations means, I'm walking in with, "this is going be a GREAT movie..." and then it's not (Prometheus...). I guess for me, I have a desire to see a film working on all levels. I think MOS works mostly on a visual level. I think the visuals are really great, certainly at a technical level. It's where Snyder excels. But, for me the emotional core of the movie is seriously lacking. And I don't think that's a high expectation thing.


With rare exception I don't see the superhero mega-movie genre as having much merit beyond an amusement park thrill ride, which is good enough. It's a largely vapid but commercially successful exercise that will continue to rise and eventually decline as the novelty wears out in favor of some other kind of visceral, visually immersive spectacle . That is distinct from whatever virtues the superhero tale holds in its native medium, comics.
Interesting. For me, I think the best ones aren't just vapid thrill rides... or at least, the ones that stick with me that I want to return to again and again have something that rises above just thrill ride--or they are making the thrill ride click on more levels than just "it's a ride!"

Dark Knight I think is a great movie and not just because there's a guy dressed as a bat... though we spend more time with him as Wayne... I think it's a great crime story, I think it's a tense thriller.

Looking at MOS, I think the cinematography wanted me to think and feel this is a serious movie and not just a theme park ride... and in the end what I got was a theme park ride.

Maybe by your definition that is high expectations, I don't know.
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Old June 12 2014, 11:24 PM   #2609
OdoWanKenobi
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

davejames wrote: View Post
Well they certainly got a lot of mileage out of Barry and John Stewart on JLU.
JLU Flash was Wally.

I'm not saying that they can't make John and Barry friends, but it would just feel wrong. It would be like if Batman v. Superman were continuing on from The Dark Knight Rises, and Superman first met John Blake instead of Bruce Wayne.
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Old June 12 2014, 11:33 PM   #2610
Dennis
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Professor Zoom wrote: View Post

I guess what I was asking you to do was technical criticism repair, so to speak. What are the creative solutions to solve some of the creative problems? (Though, obviously, some disagree with what are or are not creative problems.
Exactly so. I don't see anything that badly needs fixing in the movie. Some people just liked it and some people didn't like it.

I loved Green Lantern. In retrospect I could tell you what I think were the big problems with that movie (no, not the casting). I can't tell you whether changes to those things would have made it a big success, however.

Dark Knight I think is a great movie and not just because there's a guy dressed as a bat... though we spend more time with him as Wayne... I think it's a great crime story, I think it's a tense thriller.
Nolan's movies are among the few exceptions, because he seems to have had a pretty free hand to make fairly ambitious films with themes that interested him. The first Captain America movie rather touched me. Other than those...meh, there's not a lot. At least Snyder's movies aren't cookie-cutter affairs.
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