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Old June 12 2014, 01:39 PM   #121
MadMan1701A
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Morning, guys...

Got a few tweaks. I was wondering what the ship would look like, with cylindrical nacelles, inspired by the various ringed warpships. I also filled out the habitable area, and added a sunken area in the middle for my airlocks and stuff.







What do you guys think? I'm not sure if this works better, or not. Maybe I should have a hybrid of both engine designs?

-Ricky
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Old June 12 2014, 01:42 PM   #122
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Not working for me. All I see is toilet paper rolls.
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Old June 12 2014, 01:55 PM   #123
MadMan1701A
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Yeah, I can see that.

Going to try something else.

-Ricky
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Old June 12 2014, 02:20 PM   #124
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

I think this works better...







I think I like this version of the nacelles better than the first ones I had.

-Ricky
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Old June 12 2014, 03:43 PM   #125
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

sojourner wrote: View Post
Not working for me. All I see is toilet paper rolls.


MadMan1701A wrote: View Post
I think this works better...







I think I like this version of the nacelles better than the first ones I had.

-Ricky
I like this. It's interesting how your designs are starting to re-converge on the original ... especially those nacelles. You could probably justify giving the aft rings a smaller diameter and lend the warp nacelles a slight taper, too.

The area where the nacelle pylons meet the pylon from the "secondary hull" looks a little awkward. Why not join them all at that centerline hull? Or maybe if you thickened that area up with water tanks or storage areas with side-facing cargo hatches.

Also ... it's a common theme in Star Trek to put a bend in the nacelle pylons. Excelsior did it, Enterprise D did it, JJ's Enterprise bowed them, etc. But what, from an engineer's standpoint is the reason for that? Why not just make them straight and use less material and make them stronger?
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Old June 12 2014, 03:47 PM   #126
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

^Good point about the nacelle pylons. It makes most sense to have the three aft units extending on straight struts 120 degrees apart, extending from a common center module. And I agree, there should be more there than just a thin rod. I still think it'd make more sense to have that ventral "engineering hull" unit be on the centerline and have three nacelles extending out from it in a Y configuration, or maybe four in an X.
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Old June 12 2014, 05:15 PM   #127
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Looks good to me and very realistic and seemingly a actual caft in say 2050-2100's
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Old June 13 2014, 03:33 PM   #128
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Christopher wrote: View Post
Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
Cool as it is to actually see them, leaving fuel tanks and reactors exposed like that is just asking for trouble. That says to Klingons and their ilk "Hit Me Here."
Here's the thing, though, another thing that Trek tends to overlook: A warp bubble is a pretty effective deflector shield. You're bending spacetime around you, so you can send pretty much anything onto a trajectory that misses you altogether. Realistic space combat wouldn't be anything like we're used to on Earth or anything like what's portrayed in onscreen fiction. ...
I've long been of the opinion that FTL combat would be impossible between ships that are generating a warp bubble. If you were slipping into an alternate dimension (i.e., Hyperspace as shown in B5) then I can get the idea of FTL combat. That's never been what Trek has depicted, however.

How can sensors that are trapped inside one FTL bubble sense another FTL bubble outside of its own? Likewise, how would a ship at sublight know that a FTL ship was inbound more than a split second before its arrival? The ship at sublight, even with active sensors, is still pinging (if you'll pardon the term) in realspace, at realtime... and such pinging isn't FTL. An incoming ship at warp 1 would arrive with zero notice. At most, a split second as its warp bubble dissipated.

It would make for some very interesting story constraints.

Rob+
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Old June 13 2014, 05:35 PM   #129
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

FatherRob wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
Cool as it is to actually see them, leaving fuel tanks and reactors exposed like that is just asking for trouble. That says to Klingons and their ilk "Hit Me Here."
Here's the thing, though, another thing that Trek tends to overlook: A warp bubble is a pretty effective deflector shield. You're bending spacetime around you, so you can send pretty much anything onto a trajectory that misses you altogether. Realistic space combat wouldn't be anything like we're used to on Earth or anything like what's portrayed in onscreen fiction. ...
I've long been of the opinion that FTL combat would be impossible between ships that are generating a warp bubble. If you were slipping into an alternate dimension (i.e., Hyperspace as shown in B5) then I can get the idea of FTL combat. That's never been what Trek has depicted, however.

How can sensors that are trapped inside one FTL bubble sense another FTL bubble outside of its own? Likewise, how would a ship at sublight know that a FTL ship was inbound more than a split second before its arrival? The ship at sublight, even with active sensors, is still pinging (if you'll pardon the term) in realspace, at realtime... and such pinging isn't FTL. An incoming ship at warp 1 would arrive with zero notice. At most, a split second as its warp bubble dissipated.

It would make for some very interesting story constraints.

Rob+
Perhaps this is an advantage of photon torpedoes. If we accept that they have an on-board warp generator, it might be possible for the warp fields between the target ship and the torpedo to merge.

As for sensors, that requires Trek's unique concept of "subspace" wherein signals can be propagated at FTL velocities. As it is, with a more "realistic" view of FTL using the Alcubierre warp engine, there's none of that yet.

One possibility would be for a capital ship to maintain swarms of automated sensor buoys at a few light-minute's distance. If the Alcubierre drive is at all visible in normal space, one of these might see an incoming vessel at warp speed and be able to report back using wormhole communication.
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Old June 13 2014, 07:25 PM   #130
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

FatherRob wrote: View Post
How can sensors that are trapped inside one FTL bubble sense another FTL bubble outside of its own? Likewise, how would a ship at sublight know that a FTL ship was inbound more than a split second before its arrival? The ship at sublight, even with active sensors, is still pinging (if you'll pardon the term) in realspace, at realtime... and such pinging isn't FTL. An incoming ship at warp 1 would arrive with zero notice. At most, a split second as its warp bubble dissipated.
That's supposed to be the idea behind the Picard Maneuver in TNG's "The Battle" -- that the Stargazer jumped briefly to warp so that it appeared in a second position before the light from its disappearance from the first position reached the Ferengi's sensors, so they saw it in two places at once for a moment and got confused. But aside from that, Trek has always assumed that sensors can operate FTL, even instantaneously across dozens of parsecs. Many's the time we've heard "long-range sensors" reporting on things happening in other star systems in real time. So the Picard Maneuver couldn't actually work unless the Ferengi's long-range sensors had been damaged. (I had a rough go of explaining it away when I depicted the "Battle of Maxia" in my novel The Buried Age.)

Now, the really tricky bit is explaining how phasers can leap between different warp bubbles. The TNG Tech Manual handwaved that photon torpedoes have a mini-drive thingy that lets them carry a bit of the warp bubble with them, as it were, so as to sustain FTL flight for a finite length of time, but a phaser beam should be stuck at sublight the moment it leaves the warp field boundary. So it shouldn't be possible for ships at warp to fire phasers at each other. In my books I've used a handwave about ships needing to "synchronize" their warp fields, and implied that they have to bring the fields into contact for phasers to pass between them, but it's a blatant fudge and doesn't always hold together well.
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Old June 13 2014, 07:26 PM   #131
MadMan1701A
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Thanks guys.

Psion wrote: View Post
sojourner wrote: View Post
Not working for me. All I see is toilet paper rolls.


MadMan1701A wrote: View Post
I think this works better...

I think I like this version of the nacelles better than the first ones I had.

-Ricky
I like this. It's interesting how your designs are starting to re-converge on the original ... especially those nacelles. You could probably justify giving the aft rings a smaller diameter and lend the warp nacelles a slight taper, too.

The area where the nacelle pylons meet the pylon from the "secondary hull" looks a little awkward. Why not join them all at that centerline hull? Or maybe if you thickened that area up with water tanks or storage areas with side-facing cargo hatches.

Also ... it's a common theme in Star Trek to put a bend in the nacelle pylons. Excelsior did it, Enterprise D did it, JJ's Enterprise bowed them, etc. But what, from an engineer's standpoint is the reason for that? Why not just make them straight and use less material and make them stronger?
Thanks. That's exactly what I was trying to do. I really want this to be recognizable as the Enterprise, but operate totally differently.

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Good point about the nacelle pylons. It makes most sense to have the three aft units extending on straight struts 120 degrees apart, extending from a common center module. And I agree, there should be more there than just a thin rod. I still think it'd make more sense to have that ventral "engineering hull" unit be on the centerline and have three nacelles extending out from it in a Y configuration, or maybe four in an X.
Well, the reactors are going to stay on the bottom, since I only want the 2 nacelles. But, I do like you guys' suggestion of the strait pylons... It balances that part out much better, and looks a lot more sturdy.







Better? Worse?

I agree with you guys too, about the combat and FTL sensors. I think it would be interesting to make the ship blind while in Warp. It would really add to the sense of anticipation right before you came out of Warp somewhere, you couldn't be certain exactly what would be there.

Also liking the sensor ideas... sounds just like the ones SeaQuest had.

-Ricky
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Old June 13 2014, 07:58 PM   #132
Psion
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Much better.

Seaquest definitely flitted around between my ears while I was talking about swarms of sensor drones. The Seaquest's "whiskers" were a cool concept. Only I'm thinking of something made from programmable matter using nth-generation 3D printers to produce something like DARPA's "SmartDust" or "utility fog" concepts. Sensor drones deployed on a massive scale that look more like a rapidly expanding haze than machines when released. Simply moving through such a cloud would be enough to reveal the presence of another ship. If there's any solution to FTL communications (a variation on entanglement, wormholes, whatever), these things could be enormously useful for detecting the approach of other ships.

Now ... that deflector ring around the sphere: How about if something continues forward from the sphere and actually completes the forward part of the ring's arc so that the rest of the ring is like a giant parenthesis. The port and starboard arcs of the ring then connect to the main hull fore and aft of the sphere, along with some girder work possibly filling in the empty space within.
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Old June 14 2014, 09:14 PM   #133
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

If I were to do a FTL spacecraft, a saucer that you deposit that becomes a base all its own makes sense. Adam's sketched of a saucer with structures that grow out of the top make a lot of sense to me.

The bridge cluster was a mess of dishes, antennae, etc.

What is more, is that unlike a sphere, a saucer won't roll around, and its broad base can support a launching pad.

I have this feeling that if FTL is ever doable--you really don't want to use field effect near a large body after all. You deposit the saucer on a life bearing world, have the main bus fly around the system seeding it.

When finished, the saucer becomes a launching pad, and good old rockets are still used. A small craft with samples is launched--it would look a lot like this: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/ind...769#msg1134769

This serves as a bridge on the way in.

This docks with the warp ship as it coasts by, and at a proper distance from the planet it warps out again.

SSTO craft of small size may actually be harder to do than FTL...
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Old June 15 2014, 04:07 PM   #134
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

This is a very cool idea and thought process behind this re-imagining. Loving your concept and design. And, although I completely understand and agree with the comments made concerning the pylons, I must admit that your original design for them was more aesthetically pleasing and offered a certain streamlined flow to your design. I realize you're going for a "realistic" engineering approach, but I just preferred the angled pylons on this particular design. Just my opinion, of course. And I'm loving watching this develop. Excellent work.
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Old June 16 2014, 10:47 PM   #135
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

MadMan1701A wrote: View Post
I think this works better...







I think I like this version of the nacelles better than the first ones I had.

-Ricky
not bad desgin through i am thinking about where crew members will be sleeping and working wheres gravity for that or does it rotating inside give gravity and also if you making a ship desgin for this century heres list to think about

1. wheres gravity is it rotating centrifuge force

2. warp drive is under development

3. theres no antimatter and matter reactor yet but that might be under development

4. wheres radiators keep engines cold

5. used our current tech to see what starship would look like today using radiators and rotating centrifuge areas and propulsion systems like ion drives and fusion engines it be nice to see what ship or starship would look like in 21st century
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