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Science and Technology "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." - Carl Sagan.

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Old June 12 2014, 09:21 AM   #31
iguana_tonante
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Re: Dark Matter and Dark Energy

The universe is stuffed with massive black holes everywhere, apparently most of the galaxies have super giant ones in their centers. Immense bodies of mass, black. Wouldn't that be a more reasonable explanation?
Galaxy rotational curves disagree.

Another vote against free education.
Free education doesn't mean teachers are not paid. If he want to enroll in my courses, he can do it for a very small fee. But if he wants private tutoring, he has to pay good money.

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
I too have wondered about this. When I read about this theory, it seemed a little crackpot to me. But in the end, how can we really know? I don't think we have even remotely close enough information to be able to theorize about black holes and dark matter/energy.

So as of now, perhaps any theory is as valid as any other.


That's the same old argument: I know nothing about it, don't understand how it works, so the truth must be that nobody is actually able explain it.

I know nothing about virology. When I read about that theory, it seems a little crackpot to me. I mean, tiny fragments of genetic material encased in a protein shell that might or might not actually be alive, which hijacks cells' replication mechanism to reproduce copies of themselves? That's a little out there, don't you think? But in the end, how can we really know? The human body is still a mystery. I don't think we have even remotely close enough information to be able to theorize about stuff that happens inside it. So as of now, perhaps any theory is as valid as any other.

That's what you are doing. It doesn't work like that. To invoke the wise Carl Sagan "democracy doesn't mean that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge".
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Old June 12 2014, 09:39 AM   #32
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Re: Dark Matter and Dark Energy

That was Isaac Asimov, not Carl Sagan.
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Old June 12 2014, 09:46 AM   #33
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Re: Dark Matter and Dark Energy

Whoops! My bad.
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Old June 12 2014, 10:35 AM   #34
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Re: Dark Matter and Dark Energy

Carl Sagan made many similar, apposite quotes:

We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology.

We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.

If we long to believe that the stars rise and set for us, that we are the reason there is a Universe, does science do us a disservice in deflating our conceits?

But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Old June 12 2014, 10:56 AM   #35
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Re: Dark Matter and Dark Energy

It did seem in line with many things Sagan said, so maybe that's why I got it wrong. Still, it was wrong. (See, folks? This is how science operates. )
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Old June 12 2014, 11:26 AM   #36
Robert Comsol
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Re: Dark Matter and Dark Energy

Asbo Zaprudder wrote: View Post
Other suggested explanations include weakly interacting massive particles (WIMPs), neutrinos
IIRC, Stephen Hawking was still referring to those while these were candidates.

When it turned out they were not, he stopped talking about the topic.

Bob
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Old June 12 2014, 01:38 PM   #37
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Re: Dark Matter and Dark Energy

Stephen Hawking isn't the final arbiter on the validity of the various competing explanations for dark matter. Although some suggestions now seem more likely than others, there is far too little experimental data yet to decide. I quite like axions as an explanation as they might also resolve the strong CP problem in QCD without requiring one of the quark flavours to be massless. However, the Universe gives nary a toss as to what I or anyone else likes.
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Old June 13 2014, 05:26 AM   #38
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Re: Dark Matter and Dark Energy



So how do they work? Or do I have to pay you to find out?
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Old June 13 2014, 08:41 AM   #39
Asbo Zaprudder
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Re: Dark Matter and Dark Energy

http://www.howmagnetswork.com/

http://www.universetoday.com/82049/how-do-magnets-work/

http://science.howstuffworks.com/magnet.htm

http://www.coolmagnetman.com/maghow.htm



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Old June 13 2014, 08:56 AM   #40
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Re: Dark Matter and Dark Energy

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Old June 13 2014, 10:34 AM   #41
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Re: Dark Matter and Dark Energy

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0611093627.htm

Map of universe questioned: Dwarf galaxies don't fit standard model

David Merritt, professor of astrophysics at Rochester Institute of Technology, co-authored "Co-orbiting satellite galaxy structures are still in conflict with the distribution of primordial dwarf galaxies," to be published in an upcoming issue of Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society.

The study pokes holes in the current understanding of galaxy formation and questions the accepted model of the origin and evolution of the universe. According to the standard paradigm, 23 percent of the mass of the universe is shaped by invisible particles known as dark matter.

"The model predicts that dwarf galaxies should form inside of small clumps of dark matter and that these clumps should be distributed randomly about their parent galaxy," Merritt said. "But what is observed is very different. The dwarf galaxies belonging to the Milky Way and Andromeda are seen to be orbiting in huge, thin disk-like structures."

The study, led by Marcel Pawlowski at Case Western Reserve University, critiques three recent papers by different international teams, all of which concluded that the satellite galaxies support the standard model. The critique by Merritt and his colleagues found "serious issues" with all three studies.

The team of 14 scientists from six different countries replicated the earlier analyses using the same data and cosmological simulations and came up with much lower probabilities -- roughly one tenth of a percent -- that such structures would be seen in the Milky Way and the Andromeda galaxy.

"The earlier papers found structures in the simulations that no one would say really looked very much like the observed planar structures," said Merritt.

In their paper, Merritt and his co-authors write that, "Either the selection of model satellites is different from that of the observed ones, or an incomplete set of observational constraints has been considered, or the observed satellite distribution is inconsistent with basic assumptions. Once these issues have been addressed, the conclusions are different: Features like the observed planar structures are very rare."

The standard cosmological model is the frame of reference for many generations of scientists, some of whom are beginning to question its ability to accurately reproduce what is observed in the nearby universe. Merritt counts himself among the small and growing group that is questioning the accepted paradigm.

"Our conclusion tends to favor an alternate, and much older, model: that the satellites were pulled out from another galaxy when it interacted with the Local Group galaxies in the distant past," he said. "This 'tidal' model can naturally explain why the observed satellites are orbiting in thin disks."

Scientific progress embraces challenges to upheld theories and models for a reason, Merritt notes.

"When you have a clear contradiction like this, you ought to focus on it," Merritt said. "This is how progress in science is made."

Marcel S. Pawlowski, Benoit Famaey, Helmut Jerjen, David Merritt, Pavel Kroupa, Jörg Dabringhausen, Fabian Lüghausen, Duncan A. Forbes, Gerhard Hensler, François Hammer, Mathieu Puech, Sylvain Fouquet, Hector Flores, Yanbin Yang. Co-orbiting satellite galaxy structures are still in conflict with the distribution of primordial dwarf galaxies. Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society, 2014
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Old June 13 2014, 11:43 AM   #42
Asbo Zaprudder
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Re: Dark Matter and Dark Energy

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Yep, all one has to do is type the question into Google. It's that difficult.
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Old June 13 2014, 12:09 PM   #43
iguana_tonante
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Re: Dark Matter and Dark Energy

Exactly. And yet, from the depth of their ignorance and lack of interest to educate themselves, they feel confident enough to shit of the astrophysics community, and argue that "we can't really know", and "any theory is as valid as the other". Well, no.

But I guess it's the same kind of people who argue with their physician about a therapy because they saw a facebook post telling them that sodium bicarbonate cures cancer.
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Old June 13 2014, 12:18 PM   #44
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Re: Dark Matter and Dark Energy

Asbo Zaprudder wrote: View Post
and I expect someone has a fringe theory that involves cosmic plasmas.
Define "fringe." Is that anything socially unacceptable to the cool kids of the "in" crowd? Plasma cosmology is still evolving. Charge is the most fundamental aspect of all matter, and we have over a century of laboratory experience with plasmas.

Meanwhile, "dark matter" and dark energy in all its various hypothetical forms (WIMPs, MACHOs, axions, etc.) is not even science because it cannot be tested. We are told that it makes up over 90 percent of the universe, yet is completely invisible, undetectable and does not interact with baryonic matter—except through gravity. That makes it nothing more than a placeholder to cover a serious hole in mainstream theory.
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Old June 13 2014, 12:49 PM   #45
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Re: Dark Matter and Dark Energy

Metryq wrote: View Post
Define "fringe."
Right now? Pretty much all of your posts.

Metryq wrote: View Post
Charge is the most fundamental aspect of all matter
I must have missed the lesson at the university where they explained how electric charge keeps planets together, or atomic nuclei. Whoops.
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