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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old June 11 2014, 06:21 PM   #16
Grant
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Re: Director's cuts in blu-ray?

Oso Blanco wrote: View Post
Grant wrote: View Post
BUT on the other hand we probably won't get the director's cuts at all.....
I believe I've said this before, but the Directors Editions of TWOK and TUC are available in HD on iTunes ... no BluRay quality of course, but better than the DVDs. In fact I think they used the same transfers as for the DVDs, only that this is a higher resulution.
Thanks for that information!

Have you personally watched the Director's cuts from iTunes?
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Old June 11 2014, 08:42 PM   #17
Oso Blanco
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Re: Director's cuts in blu-ray?

Grant wrote: View Post
Thanks for that information!

Have you personally watched the Director's cuts from iTunes?
I did. I have them sitting on my hard drive and I can watch them anytime I want to. Am I allowed to talk about DRM removal here? Probably not, so I won't.
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Old June 11 2014, 10:02 PM   #18
LOKAI of CHERON
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Re: Director's cuts in blu-ray?

Oso Blanco wrote: View Post
Grant wrote: View Post
Thanks for that information!

Have you personally watched the Director's cuts from iTunes?
I did. I have them sitting on my hard drive and I can watch them anytime I want to. Am I allowed to talk about DRM removal here? Probably not, so I won't.
I won't be holding a requiem reference staying tight lipped over DRM removal!
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Old June 12 2014, 12:21 AM   #19
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Re: Director's cuts in blu-ray?

Grant wrote: View Post
So they cleaned up the one that was the hardest to restore and then took all the other 5 movies and just rescanned existing prints at 1080p. Then they did a quick clean-up on those with standard 2K scans.

So we got one out of six true restorations and five that are just scanned at 1080p with a later digital clean-up.
Really? From what I've read the other five films were merely taken from existing video masters made back in the early 2000s for TV broadcasts, rather than actually bothering to rescan them for the blu-ray release. That explains why there was DNR applied to hide the imperfections of the scans.

However, it's actually not a bad method had they handled it much better. This is typically done for many films out there, but for whatever reason the Trek films came off the worst.

Here's a good example of a film being cleaned up from an existing video master. http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Li...5/#Screenshots Originally, the first eleven Bond films were newly rescanned at 4K and cleaned up. However, because it's so expensive (over 20 films!) only those first eleven films were done in that fashion, whereas the rest were taken from existing video masters and cleaned up from there, retimed, ect. It probably made sense in that case because the films by the 70s were in much better condition anyway and didn't require as much clean up as the films from the 60s. Whatever the case, they managed to really make the films look gorgeous on blu-ray. I pick this THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS as a good example as it was released at the time when the TOS films were made and show that they could look this good if done right. From what I understand, this was also done for the Indiana Jones films. For the blu-ray, RAIDERS was restored at 4K, while the rest were from existing video masters and they all look just as gorgeous.
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Old June 12 2014, 12:50 AM   #20
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Re: Director's cuts in blu-ray?

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(notably that CBS Digital went straight from wrapping TNG HD and moving over to the TMP director's edition).
I suspect if CBS-D are working on The Motion Picture: Director's Edition, that they will be working together with Daren Dochterman and his team since they still have all the CGI project files for the new visual effects that were added to that film.

I sincerely hope it's true because I've been hoping for a proper HD re-release of that film, with the CGI properly re-rendered, and not simply upscaled.
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Old June 12 2014, 03:43 AM   #21
Lance
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Re: Director's cuts in blu-ray?

MakeshiftPython wrote:
What baffles me is that there were some excellent blu-ray releases by Paramount for films that came out around the same time as the TOS films, yet those Trek films were not given the same treatment video wise. THE VOYAGE HOME was nominated for an Oscar for cinematography, but you wouldn't get that impression when watching the blu-ray as the picture quality is just underwhelming for a variety of reasons. The worst being the DNR, especially for THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY. Boy oh boy, that flick looks like rubber city.
DNR is the bain of film restoration. I don't want my grain taken away completely, the grain is what gives film it's texture! By all means if they want to take some it away, fine, but I think too many blu ray releases have been overzealous in their attempts to scrub the picture clean.

MakeshiftPython wrote:
Grant wrote: View Post
So they cleaned up the one that was the hardest to restore and then took all the other 5 movies and just rescanned existing prints at 1080p. Then they did a quick clean-up on those with standard 2K scans.

So we got one out of six true restorations and five that are just scanned at 1080p with a later digital clean-up.
Really? From what I've read the other five films were merely taken from existing video masters made back in the early 2000s for TV broadcasts, rather than actually bothering to rescan them for the blu-ray release. That explains why there was DNR applied to hide the imperfections of the scans.

However, it's actually not a bad method had they handled it much better. This is typically done for many films out there, but for whatever reason the Trek films came off the worst.

Here's a good example of a film being cleaned up from an existing video master. http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Li...5/#Screenshots Originally, the first eleven Bond films were newly rescanned at 4K and cleaned up. However, because it's so expensive (over 20 films!) only those first eleven films were done in that fashion, whereas the rest were taken from existing video masters and cleaned up from there, retimed, ect. It probably made sense in that case because the films by the 70s were in much better condition anyway and didn't require as much clean up as the films from the 60s. Whatever the case, they managed to really make the films look gorgeous on blu-ray. I pick this THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS as a good example as it was released at the time when the TOS films were made and show that they could look this good if done right. From what I understand, this was also done for the Indiana Jones films. For the blu-ray, RAIDERS was restored at 4K, while the rest were from existing video masters and they all look just as gorgeous.
And that's the other thing. Too many movie studios have done this, doing a proper rescan of only one or maybe only a small handful of movies in an overall series, and then releasing the others quickly after only doing the absolute minimum of work on them. Which usually means just taking an existing master, applying too much DNR to it, and then pushing it out the door for the sake of being able to get all the movies in a single boxset by a predetermined release date.

Frankly, I'd rather they take their time and do everything properly. But hey-ho.
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Old June 12 2014, 04:43 AM   #22
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Re: Director's cuts in blu-ray?

It makes sense that KHAN would be the one to get the best treatment given how the process is expensive. As you said, only reserved for a small number of movies, usually the classics. RoboCop will get 4K restoration, but none of the sequels ever will. That doesn't mean the other films couldn't have gotten an impressive transfer without a 4K restoration, as the latter James Bond and Indiana Jones films showed. It's just a shame Paramount went with the more cheaper approach by applying the DNR and calling it a day.
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Old June 12 2014, 05:20 AM   #23
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Re: Director's cuts in blu-ray?

LOKAI of CHERON wrote: View Post
Grant wrote: View Post
But hey if you're happy with the color and the cut of the first Blu-ray ----you're all set already.

Hopefully the fans of the DC can get their wish as well.
I certainly have no problem with the colour timing on the BD - in fact - it looks rather good actually. Although I definitely have a propensity towards "purism" when it comes to movies, I like to think I remain open minded enough to judge something on its individual merits. In the case of the TWOK BD, the colour timing looks excellent to my eye, I therefore accept it.

That doesn't mean I reject or dislike the original in any way - quite the opposite. I would happily double dip on a seamlessly branched disc containing both cuts of the film - restoring the perhaps more familiar balance of colours. I'm positive this will happen at some point, so we'll all be happy as you say!

But, yes, you're right, I prefer the theatrical version of the movie by a landslide!
The Blu-Ray version looks like they reduced the oversaturated red of the original, but reduced too much of it, so now it looks like it has a blue filter attached.

Personally I like things looking properly color balanced, BUT the biggest thing is to get better resolution.

Grant wrote: View Post
The funny thing is that they went back and supposedly found the TWOK original negative was so bad that thye decided to completely restore it complete with a 4K scan.

So they cleaned up the one that was the hardest to restore and then took all the other 5 movies and just rescanned existing prints at 1080p. Then they did a quick clean-up on those with standard 2K scans.

So we got one out of six true restorations and five that are just scanned at 1080p with a later digital clean-up.

I know these aren't huge money makers for Paramount at this point but that's pretty lazy and a real slap to the loyal fans who have been supporting Trek on video for over 30 years on multiple formats.

I would be real sad if in 2016 we get the Director's cuts in a less than stellar release (no branching, no true restoration, no color correction, no deleted scenes), BUT on the other hand we probably won't get the director's cuts at all.....
What else should we expect from Paramount. They think everything Trek before JJ Abrams is for dying old nerds. Maybe they blame declining ratings of DS9 and VOY, and ENT was the nail on the coffin.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
It makes sense that KHAN would be the one to get the best treatment given how the process is expensive. As you said, only reserved for a small number of movies, usually the classics. RoboCop will get 4K restoration, but none of the sequels ever will. That doesn't mean the other films couldn't have gotten an impressive transfer without a 4K restoration, as the latter James Bond and Indiana Jones films showed. It's just a shame Paramount went with the more cheaper approach by applying the DNR and calling it a day.
DNR is the bain of film restoration. I don't want my grain taken away completely, the grain is what gives film it's texture! By all means if they want to take some it away, fine, but I think too many blu ray releases have been overzealous in their attempts to scrub the picture clean.
Exactly. A little grain is necessary to keep the illusion of a sharper picture. Too much DNR is blurring the image and defeating the purpose of even having a movie on BD.
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Old June 12 2014, 05:56 PM   #24
LOKAI of CHERON
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Re: Director's cuts in blu-ray?

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
LOKAI of CHERON wrote: View Post
Grant wrote: View Post
But hey if you're happy with the color and the cut of the first Blu-ray ----you're all set already.

Hopefully the fans of the DC can get their wish as well.
I certainly have no problem with the colour timing on the BD - in fact - it looks rather good actually. Although I definitely have a propensity towards "purism" when it comes to movies, I like to think I remain open minded enough to judge something on its individual merits. In the case of the TWOK BD, the colour timing looks excellent to my eye, I therefore accept it.

That doesn't mean I reject or dislike the original in any way - quite the opposite. I would happily double dip on a seamlessly branched disc containing both cuts of the film - restoring the perhaps more familiar balance of colours. I'm positive this will happen at some point, so we'll all be happy as you say!

But, yes, you're right, I prefer the theatrical version of the movie by a landslide!
The Blu-Ray version looks like they reduced the oversaturated red of the original, but reduced too much of it, so now it looks like it has a blue filter attached.

Personally I like things looking properly color balanced, BUT the biggest thing is to get better resolution.
Unquestionably, a couple of scenes have been radically and just plain altered - as in the cap of the Regula Planetoid at the head of this thread. However, most of the film merely appears to have the blooming reds of antecedent home video releases toned down a little - as you say.

I honestly don't see any evidence of a particular blue push across the vast majority of the transfer.
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Old June 13 2014, 06:57 AM   #25
Lance
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Re: Director's cuts in blu-ray?

The question is though: was the original over-saturated red as a deliberate artistic decision?

If so, then it should've been retained.

Especially as the Blu Ray release is supposed to be the theatrical edition.

So, have we ever gotten any explanations for why the color balance was altered for the Blu Ray in the first place? Was it a choice made during the rescanning, or was it an accidental artefact of the restoration? Did they scan the negatives at 4k and simply transcribe the color tones 'as shot'?
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Old June 13 2014, 03:33 PM   #26
Grant
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Re: Director's cuts in blu-ray?

Lance wrote: View Post
The question is though: was the original over-saturated red as a deliberate artistic decision?

If so, then it should've been retained.

Especially as the Blu Ray release is supposed to be the theatrical edition.

So, have we ever gotten any explanations for why the color balance was altered for the Blu Ray in the first place? Was it a choice made during the rescanning, or was it an accidental artefact of the restoration? Did they scan the negatives at 4k and simply transcribe the color tones 'as shot'?
Great question. That exact thing happened in the Conan (1982) Blu-ray.

There is an early scene that was shot during the middle of the day where Conan is being chased by a pack of wolves. In post-production they darkened it so it would seem to be just before dawn and imply he was being chased all night.

When they restored the elements they didn't know or realize this and transferred it as a day shot. So now he be being chased at high noon by the dogs and the original intent was lost.
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Old June 13 2014, 04:40 PM   #27
trekker670
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Re: Director's cuts in blu-ray?

Grant wrote: View Post
Great question. That exact thing happened in the Conan (1982) Blu-ray.

There is an early scene that was shot during the middle of the day where Conan is being chased by a pack of wolves. In post-production they darkened it so it would seem to be just before dawn and imply he was being chased all night.

When they restored the elements they didn't know or realize this and transferred it as a day shot. So now he be being chased at high noon by the dogs and the original intent was lost.

I don't get how mistakes like this happen. You'd think a requirement for remastering/transferring a film would be watching the original.

Look at some of the behind the scene from TNG-HD, you almost always see an editor with both the newly scanned film and the original tapes for comparison.

Last edited by trekker670; June 13 2014 at 05:57 PM. Reason: Added quote I was responding to for clarity.
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Old June 13 2014, 05:43 PM   #28
LOKAI of CHERON
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Re: Director's cuts in blu-ray?

trekker670 wrote: View Post
I don't get how mistakes like this happen. You'd think a requirement for remastering/transferring a film would be watching the original.

Look at some of the behind the scene from TNG-HD, you almost always see an editor with both the newly scanned film and the original tapes for comparison.
Well, it hasn't been established it's a mistake at all. As I mentioned above, a couple of scenes have been radically altered, but the majority of the transfer really isn't massively different. Based on that, I would intuit deliberate intent.

I would guess a call was made to reduce some of the glowing reds which do manifest in previous video releases, and are slightly OTT IMHO.

As for the other very specific changes, who knows?
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Old June 13 2014, 05:52 PM   #29
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Re: Director's cuts in blu-ray?

trekker670 wrote: View Post
I don't get how mistakes like this happen. You'd think a requirement for remastering/transferring a film would be watching the original.

Look at some of the behind the scene from TNG-HD, you almost always see an editor with both the newly scanned film and the original tapes for comparison.
The release of the six original movies was just a hasty attempt to cash in on the release of the Abrams movie.

According to Digitalbits' Bill Hunt Paramount didn't even realize they didn't have the Director's cuts ready for release on Blu-ray. They only had time to properly restore 1 of the 6 movies and picked TWOK. They were in a big hurry and probably overlooked or didn't care to check on what the proper color timing is for the movie.

Trekcore has dozens of comparison shots from the DVD vs. the Blu-ray.
The color is off thru-out the movie--not just for a few shots.
It just so happens that it is more glaringly obvious in those Regula shots.

They also didn't have time to (or didn't care to) compile deleted scenes for 2, 3,4 and 6. All they could manage was another set of commentaries for the movies.

It's laughable when listening to the new commentary for TWOK to hear Meyer pause mid-sentence when he realizes that he is not watching his Director's cut and mumble, "why are they showing this version?"---to paraphrase
WTF? The guy who supposedly was overseeing the restoration didn't even know what version he was being shown?

It was a quick cynical lazy attempt to re-sell a product that they had sold many, many times before without doing any pre-planning or giving it much thought.

They probably figured, "We'll sell them a more deluxe version again in the future."---

EXCEPT that is dependent on the bean counters telling them that the additional work will be cost effective in terms of reselling the product to the same group for the umpteenth time.

I very much doubt it will be. By now, 4 years later most fans have broken down and bought the movies for as little as $5.

Besides a few diehards like some in this thread--there just isn't a huge market for another dip.

As for 2016 as the last best hope of getting the Director's cuts/deluxe non DNRed versions---that depends on what they have in mind to sell us in 2016.

They may launch a new series, they may announce DS9 on Blu-ray, they may release the Animated series on Blu-ray, they may re-release the the first two Abrams movies in a deluxe set, etc.

Yes, it's probably the last, best hope, but it's not a sure bet by any means.
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Old June 13 2014, 05:58 PM   #30
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Re: Director's cuts in blu-ray?

Sorry all, I was responding to Gant's mention of Conan. I added the quote for clarity.
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