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Old June 11 2014, 07:21 PM   #91
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

trevanian wrote: View Post
I think Kirk even has a glimmer of what is coming. When he muses about the 'hero's welcome,' he may already be expecting some bad shit coming down.
Just had a lightbulb moment from reading the Search For Spock novelization a few years ago. When the Ensign asks Kirk if they're planning a reception, the narration mentions that this is a really inappropriate thing for him to ask but he's simply too young to know better. I never really understood why, as it's a legitimate question as far as I can tell.

But the subtext is that everything that happened with Reliant and Genesis is actually a complete fiasco. Kirk is described as giving the kid a pass as a touch of gernosity, but then adds with bitterness, "God knows there should be."

IOW, he's expecting to put into spacedock and be immediately courtmartialed faster than you can say "Hey, don't court martial me, dude."

The main thing I got from opening day on SFS (besides thinking it was a real disappointment) was that Starfleet and the Federation didn't DESERVE benefitting from having this crew anymore, and that Kirk & co would have been much better off going private (which coincidentally fits into my notino for followups that wouldn't be burdened with all the rigamarole of San Francisco and spacedock and could have just told trek stories without a lot of distraction.)
Here's a thought: Star Trek strives to be contemporary and keeping up with current events. With the recent influx of private spaceflight programs and the relative decline of NASA, that might actually be a viable storyline for Star Trek 3. If, say, the fallout from the Vengeance incident leads to Starfleet being either disbanded or else severely curtailed and Kirk, refusing the order to return to Earth, goes off on his own, hoping to cash in one big discovery that might restore Starfleet's credibility.
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Old June 11 2014, 07:25 PM   #92
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The entire populations of Sigma Iota II, Eminar VII, the former disciples of Val and the High Advisor of Ardana might take issue with that statement. Aside from occasionally violating the prime directive...
This is one of the reasons why I started this TOS thread.

Regarding Kirk "violating" the Prime Directive, I'll say appearances can be deceiving.

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Old June 11 2014, 07:55 PM   #93
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
What we can tell from the actual scene is that the Federation security undercover guy obviously didn't follow McCoy, but was already there (unless one wants to seriously claim that he saw where McCoy was heading, ran past him and grabbed a glass from the bar ).

I got the impression that somehow this bar was known to Federation security to be a place for illegal activities. So instead it wasn't closed (where will it pop up next?) but tolerated, yet with some undercover agents in place.

The issue in the film was the controversy of the Genesis Project and apparently the undercover agent was put in place to listen what information was flowing around. I have little doubt that he had been briefed who was involved with the Genesis Incident, so he probably identified McCoy when he entered the bar.
Exactly. He wasn't there to keep an eye on McCoy, he was there to make sure anyone who talked about going to Genesis was prohibited from doing so. There was no personal animosity toward the doctor. As a matter of fact, the guard treats McCoy quite nicely (for a security guard) until the doctor starts acting weird.

trevanian wrote: View Post
Kind of makes me wonder what movie you saw...
I saw the same movie as you, only my interpretation of Starfleet is nothing like yours.

The entire populations of Sigma Iota II, Eminar VII, the former disciples of Val and the High Advisor of Ardana might take issue with that statement. Aside from occasionally violating the prime directive, Kirk's missions have an alarming tendency to uproot the political establishment of whatever planet he visits.
Oh please. You're talking as if Kirk was solely guilty of stuff like this throughout TOS. How about Ronald Tracy? Merrick? John Gill?

In another universe, a less established James T. Kirk got demoted and nearly fired for that sort of thing; in the Prime Universe, they stuck him behind a desk where they assumed they'd be able to keep him out of trouble.
1. The Abramsverse has nothing to do with this discussion. 2. That's just your assumption that Starfleet promoted him to Admiral just to "stick him behind a desk where they assumed they'd be able to keep him out of trouble." There's no evidence for that accusation at all.

And yet...
Exactly. And yet...Starfleet never demoted Kirk, took away his ship, scattered his crew. A a matter of fact, they let him take the Enterprise back from Decker. If they really were out to get him, they could have court-martialed him and threw him in the stockade for the rest of his life.
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Old June 12 2014, 07:38 PM   #94
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Forbin wrote: View Post
Leto_II wrote: View Post
To be sure, it's not the same thing that we saw in Star Trek VI -- in that film, the Enterprise-A used sensor devices to track the gaseous emissions of Chang's Bird-of-Prey in order to gain a targeting lock (the ship was utterly untraceable up to that point).

In Generations, the Enterprise-D triggers a cloaking-activation via transmitted signal-pulse in order to force the Duras sisters' ship to drop its shields long enough to score some damage; the ship was already decloaked and well-visible to the Enterprise.
I think that's not the point - It was the same footage. The same piece of film, reused. i.e. they were too cheap to film a new special effect and re-used the footage from the film just previous, as if no one would notice. And not just an establishing shot like the ship leaving port, which are often stock shots, but the climax of the film's major battle scene, which should be individual and memorable! It takes you right out of the film with a big ! Even more than the rest of the film, it screamed "We don't really care if we make a good product, 'cause we know you guys will give us money as long as it says Star Trek on the label."
Except it wasn't the exact footage-reuse I was talking about, there. The original poster was discussing storyline differences, not post-production.

No one is disputing the footage-recycling issue.
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Old June 15 2014, 01:41 AM   #95
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
And yet...
Exactly. And yet...Starfleet never demoted Kirk, took away his ship, scattered his crew.
Oh, but they did. Throughout the original movies, the only time Kirk is GIVEN command of the Enterprise is the end of The Voyage Home. Every other time he takes the bridge, he does so either in the face of a massive emergency (acting on his own authority) or, in TUC, because the Chancellor of the High Council asked for him by name. Strictly speaking, the only time Kirk is SUPPOSED to be in command of the Enterprise is in STV, when the ship is falling apart and half its systems aren't working.

And yes, they DID scatter his crew. In Wrath of Khan most of his original bridge officers are teaching at the academy, Chekov is first officer on Reliant and Sulu is on temporary loan from another assignment (probably Excelsior) for three weeks. NONE of them are supposed to be on the Enterprise in Search for Spock, and given their histories Starfleet is probably very anxious to find other work for them the moment they get off the ship (Scotty got reassigned and promoted before he even left the ship).

A a matter of fact, they let him take the Enterprise back from Decker.
"Let" him? Both the novelization and the movie itself both strongly imply that Kirk had the admiralty by the balls. As Bones put it, he rammed it down their throats.

Obviously, Starfleet wants Kirk to stay behind his desk. The question is, WHY? At least after Genesis, one probable answer is that they felt he had caused enough trouble and they took steps to sandbag him to the full extent it was politically feasible to do so.

If they really were out to get him, they could have court-martialed him and threw him in the stockade for the rest of his life.
And if he was anyone else but James T. Kirk, them Hero of the V'ger Incident, slayer of Space Amoebas, Destroyer of Doomsday Machines, Avenger of Memory Alpha and Redeemer of Organia, that's exactly what they would have done.

But Kirk has done too much and is respected by too many for them to not invite controversy by doing so. It's a relatively common problem, usually solved by bureaucratic back doors like the one Morrow uses to (try to) keep Kirk from taking the Enterprise back out again.

Court Martials are for rank-and-file loosers with no credibility. When an Admiral or a General fucks up, it's called "forced retirement."
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Old June 15 2014, 04:04 AM   #96
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Throughout the original movies, the only time Kirk is GIVEN command of the Enterprise is the end of The Voyage Home. Every other time he takes the bridge, he does so either in the face of a massive emergency (acting on his own authority) or, in TUC, because the Chancellor of the High Council asked for him by name. Strictly speaking, the only time Kirk is SUPPOSED to be in command of the Enterprise is in STV, when the ship is falling apart and half its systems aren't working.
Let's analyze this, shall we? In TMP, Kirk is given back command of the Enterprise. Even though McCoy stated that Kirk "rammed it down their throats," Kirk also implied to Scotty that it wasn't an easy thing to persuade Nogura. But persuade him he did, and at the end of the film it's implied that Kirk is now permanently in command (and the ST Encyclopedia also conjectures that he proceeds on another 5 year mission as captain.

In TWOK, Spock is in command but allows Kirk to take the center seat during the mission. When Kirk returns the Enterprise in TSFS, Starfleet doesn't berate him for being in command, they just say that the Enterprise is to be decommissioned. Chekov asks if they'll get another ship, implying that he thinks the crew will remain together, something he wouldn't think if Starfleet was out to get them or separate them.

In TVH, the crew is seemingly reunited once again at the end, and in TFF and TUC, they are all serving together still (except for Sulu, who apparently Starfleet was so pissed at that they gave him command of the Excelsior just to get him away from Kirk, by your logic).

And yes, they DID scatter his crew. In Wrath of Khan most of his original bridge officers are teaching at the academy, Chekov is first officer on Reliant and Sulu is on temporary loan from another assignment (probably Excelsior) for three weeks. NONE of them are supposed to be on the Enterprise in Search for Spock, and given their histories Starfleet is probably very anxious to find other work for them the moment they get off the ship (Scotty got reassigned and promoted before he even left the ship).
And please show me the evidence that these people got their promotions and transfers not because they deserved them, but because Starfleet had some ulterior motive to separate them. If they did, it sure didn't work out for them, did it?

Obviously, Starfleet wants Kirk to stay behind his desk. The question is, WHY? At least after Genesis, one probable answer is that they felt he had caused enough trouble and they took steps to sandbag him to the full extent it was politically feasible to do so.
Complete supposition.

And if he was anyone else but James T. Kirk, them Hero of the V'ger Incident, slayer of Space Amoebas, Destroyer of Doomsday Machines, Avenger of Memory Alpha and Redeemer of Organia, that's exactly what they would have done.

But Kirk has done too much and is respected by too many for them to not invite controversy by doing so. It's a relatively common problem, usually solved by bureaucratic back doors like the one Morrow uses to (try to) keep Kirk from taking the Enterprise back out again.

Court Martials are for rank-and-file loosers with no credibility. When an Admiral or a General fucks up, it's called "forced retirement."
All of the examples you provide are reasons why Starfleet would want an experienced captain and crew out there, not reasons why they would want to blackball them.
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Old June 15 2014, 08:05 PM   #97
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
In TMP, Kirk is given back command of the Enterprise. Even though McCoy stated that Kirk "rammed it down their throats," Kirk also implied to Scotty that it wasn't an easy thing to persuade Nogura. But persuade him he did, and at the end of the film it's implied that Kirk is now permanently in command (and the ST Encyclopedia also conjectures that he proceeds on another 5 year mission as captain).
Emphasis on "conjecture" I'd say. From TMP:

KIRK: I'm replacing you as Captain of the Enterprise. You'll stay on as Executive Officer. Temporary grade reduction to Commander.

This line clearly indicates that Decker was only reduced to Commander for the duration of the mission (and would have gotten his rank of "Captain" back at its end).

Of course, at the end of this mission he was no longer around so Kirk had the liberty to take the Enterprise around a couple of interstellar blocks.

I don't know how long Admiral Kirk had the Enterprise at his disposal, but I'm confident a new captain took command eventually and Kirk returned to his duties as admiral.

Bob
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Old June 15 2014, 10:05 PM   #98
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

If they wanted to? They could have a new Captain and crew running the Enterprise for two five year mission, leaving three years for the Spock.
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Old June 16 2014, 03:17 AM   #99
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

We've seen Starfleet flag officers command starships and starship task forces before. (Robert Wesley and Matt Decker come to mind) Why couldn't the Enterprise have been Kirk's command ship for deep space assignments? If the Enterprise were the flagship of, say, a task force or an explorer's wing, Kirk could command a whole group of ships from the Enterprise. This could also explain how Spock got promoted to captain.
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Old June 16 2014, 04:29 AM   #100
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I don't know how long Admiral Kirk had the Enterprise at his disposal, but I'm confident a new captain took command eventually and Kirk returned to his duties as admiral.
yenny wrote: View Post
They could have a new Captain and crew running the Enterprise for two five year mission, leaving three years for the Spock.
Except for that pesky line in Generations where the reporter states that the new Ent-B is the first Enterprise in 30 years without Kirk as its captain. (Granted this doesn't take into account Spock's captaincy during the training cruise in TWOK, but it's not like Kirk or anyone else corrected the reporter either, or said something like, "don't you remember that other guy, Captain Joe Smith or whoever, who took command after the V'Ger incident for five years???")
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Old June 16 2014, 10:50 AM   #101
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Reporters - You don't really expect statements from those that would qualify for an encyclopedia, especially when they ignore the captaincy of Spock who also (somehow) "died" in the line of duty?

I find it difficult to believe that anyone in Starfleet who achieved an admiral's rank can just say "I'm having second thoughts, I realize I don't really like the paperwork and would like to get another starship command at the earliest next convenience, please."

KIRK: Spare me your notions of poetry, please. We all have our assigned duties.

OTOH, McCoy's statement suggests differently:

McCOY: Get back your command. Get it back before you turn into part of this collection. Before you really do grow old.

Maybe Kirk is an exceptional case and Starfleet is willing to bend the rules for him, considering his public image.

However, if the public only looks up to Kirk, then the other starship captains aren't that "right stuff" apparently (and illustrated by Captain Harriman of the Enterprise-B ).

Come to think of it Kirk's situation in TWOK might be another illustration of "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one or the few":

Although he could get back a starship command, he prefers not to receive special treatment and instead do the job he is assigned to.

Bob
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Old June 16 2014, 03:46 PM   #102
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

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Reporters - You don't really expect statements from those that would qualify for an encyclopedia, especially when they ignore the captaincy of Spock who also (somehow) "died" in the line of duty?
And yet, as I said, no one corrects the reporter as if he made a mistake, not even Kirk, who looks quite pensive in the scene, as if the reporter struck a nerve. That wouldn't have happened if the reporter had his facts wrong. And I would think that every schoolkid in the 23rd century would know about the history of the Enterprise by then (just like Harriman states), so the chances of that reporter getting something so elementary wrong such as who's been in command of ships named Enterprise over a 30 year period would be quite slim. As for Spock, see below.

Although he could get back a starship command, he prefers not to receive special treatment and instead do the job he is assigned to.
But not actually knowing what happened in the intervening time between TMP and TWOK or seeing anything on screen, the only evidence we have is this reporter's statement that no one was in command of either the Ent-nil or the Ent-A other than Kirk. And for all we know, Kirk was in overall command of the ship during TWOK, but allowed Spock to have the conn during the training shakedown temporarily.
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Old June 16 2014, 05:46 PM   #103
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
And yet, as I said, no one corrects the reporter as if he made a mistake, not even Kirk, who looks quite pensive in the scene, as if the reporter struck a nerve. That wouldn't have happened if the reporter had his facts wrong.
Is it common for reporters to correct other reporters' questions in the middle of a shout-your-questions photo op?

Also, the reporter's question is correct even if there have been multiple other captains of the ship: the Enterprise-B is, by definition, the first starship Enterprise in thirty years never to have been commanded by James Kirk. The question is not very different to asking John Young about the Orion capsules as the first American spacecraft in over fifty years which he did not fly, which is true regardless of the fact that he didn't fly every American spacecraft of the past half-century (and didn't even fly all five operational space shuttles, come to that.)
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Old June 16 2014, 07:22 PM   #104
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
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Throughout the original movies, the only time Kirk is GIVEN command of the Enterprise is the end of The Voyage Home. Every other time he takes the bridge, he does so either in the face of a massive emergency (acting on his own authority) or, in TUC, because the Chancellor of the High Council asked for him by name. Strictly speaking, the only time Kirk is SUPPOSED to be in command of the Enterprise is in STV, when the ship is falling apart and half its systems aren't working.
Let's analyze this, shall we? In TMP, Kirk is given back command of the Enterprise. Even though McCoy stated that Kirk "rammed it down their throats," Kirk also implied to Scotty that it wasn't an easy thing to persuade Nogura. But persuade him he did, and at the end of the film it's implied that Kirk is now permanently in command (and the ST Encyclopedia also conjectures that he proceeds on another 5 year mission as captain.
First of all, even the novelization -- written by Gene Rodenberry, no less -- goes into exhaustive detail of exactly how Kirk ended up making Admiral in the first place. His argument with Nogura happens in that context:

At first Nogura had seemed indifferent and impatient-but Kirk had seen that the Commanding Admiral was also troubled and tired. Logs aside, was today's Kirk a better Captain than the alert and upcoming young Decker? How much had Kirk been damaged by almost three years on the ground in an unfamiliar and unhappy environment? Ordinarily, Kirk would never have risked this direct a confrontation with the Commanding Admiral. But this was the first real challenge Kirk had faced in these past three years and Nogura, however dynamic and fearsome his personality, was also the man who had manipulated him, used him. This was a battle that Kirk was determined to win.
In the end, Nogura caved because Kirk promised him that he was motivated PURELY by the need to intercept V'ger and by nothing else, and then added a the shameless guilt-trip of "I've never lied to you, and I'm sure you've never lied to me." The other half of this issue is that Kirk played on Decker's reputation for being overly cautious at times, which put him in a position to pull rank and take over for the emergency.

As for taking back the Enterprise for a five-year mission, there's NOTHING AT ALL that suggests he remained on board any longer than the actual shakedown cruise. The novelization goes on to suggest that with Kirk's spectacular success in the V'ger incident, he basically had Nogura by the balls and could request just about anything and have it granted. Even if Kirk got what he wanted -- which is far from certain -- that would create a huge amount of tension in an already strained relationship between Kirk and the Admiralty.

In TWOK, Spock is in command but allows Kirk to take the center seat during the mission.
Spock doesn't "allow" it at all, he INSISTS. Partly because he knows the regulations, but mostly because he is Kirk's friend and knows it'll be good for him.

When Kirk returns the Enterprise in TSFS, Starfleet doesn't berate him for being in command, they just say that the Enterprise is to be decommissioned.
And they use every excuse in the books to avoid giving him a NEW command.

Which, as we find out at the end of TVH, they could have easily done; apparently they had a ship already waiting for a crew (whatever it was that wound up being christened Enterprise-A) but they didn't want to give it to Kirk. This makes it another repeat of TMP: the Admiralty wants Kirk off the bridge, and this time Kirk doesn't have a legitimate excuse to push back.

And yes, they DID scatter his crew. In Wrath of Khan most of his original bridge officers are teaching at the academy, Chekov is first officer on Reliant and Sulu is on temporary loan from another assignment (probably Excelsior) for three weeks. NONE of them are supposed to be on the Enterprise in Search for Spock, and given their histories Starfleet is probably very anxious to find other work for them the moment they get off the ship (Scotty got reassigned and promoted before he even left the ship).
And please show me the evidence that these people got their promotions and transfers not because they deserved them, but because Starfleet had some ulterior motive to separate them.
Consider that for a moment: Chekov is promoted to first officer on USS Reliant at a time when McCoy is lamenting "Why don't we put an experienced crew back on the ship?" This begs the question of why Enterprise IS short of experienced officers, why isn't Chekov acting as first officer of the Enterprise? More importantly, why is Sulu taking "any chance to go aboard the Enterprise" instead of being, you know, CAPTAIN of the Enterprise?

The simple answer is that the Enterprise crew didn't just get promoted, they got LATERALLY promoted away from Kirk's command. Only the Admiralty specifically knows why, but at least in TMP it's strongly suggested that Starfleet put Kirk behind the desk for the organization's needs to the complete detriment of his career.

All of the examples you provide are reasons why Starfleet would want an experienced captain and crew out there
Actually, that was the specific reason why they initially wanted him behind a desk, where his experience could do more good for the organization as a whole. The U.S. Navy does the same thing in the submarine service: attack boat skippers rarely get more than one command assignment and NEVER get more than two. I'm told that this is also becoming the case with aviators now, where a two-year combat tour (or two if you're lucky) is typically followed by ten to fifteen years in training squadrons, quietly waiting for retirement.
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Old June 16 2014, 07:32 PM   #105
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Re: Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Reporters - You don't really expect statements from those that would qualify for an encyclopedia, especially when they ignore the captaincy of Spock who also (somehow) "died" in the line of duty?
And yet, as I said, no one corrects the reporter as if he made a mistake, not even Kirk, who looks quite pensive in the scene, as if the reporter struck a nerve. That wouldn't have happened if the reporter had his facts wrong.
The reporter DID have his facts wrong. That's not even in dispute at this point.

Why would you expect Kirk to correct him on that regard? He only here in the first place because Scotty talked him into coming; he DEFINITELY didn't come here to argue his personal history with a clueless reporter.

And I would think that every schoolkid in the 23rd century would know about the history of the Enterprise by then
Can you tell me, just off the top of your head, how many space flights Neil Armstrong had during his entire astronaut career?

the only evidence we have is this reporter's statement that no one was in command of either the Ent-nil or the Ent-A other than Kirk.
And the reporter was wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.
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