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Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 11 2014, 03:41 AM   #151
drt
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Now, I know that J.J. Abrams has made it known to all that he's not a STAR TREK fan. Well, I find that a little hard to believe, based on the evidence presented to us, so far.
I'm pretty sure the "I was never really a Star Trek fan" (or however that quote goes) was part of the same Paramount marketing concern about Star Trek insularity that also led to the similarly distancing "not your father's Star Trek" tagline.
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Old June 11 2014, 12:05 PM   #152
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

The Keeper wrote: View Post
He often allowed spats between McCoy and Spock to go on before, during and after the mission.
Never at the detriment of the mission.

BigJake wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Never seen him bullshit with other members of the crew about a Chess match on the way to the bridge to answer a potential distress call.
Never seen his crew simply ignore him when tried to set the priorities of a mission or task, more like. Because that wasn't something he would put up with.
Exactly.

Ovation wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Never seen him bullshit with other members of the crew about a Chess match on the way to the bridge to answer a potential distress call.
Never seen his crew simply ignore him when tried to set the priorities of a mission or task, more like. Because that wasn't something he would put up with.
Much earlier in his career. Still learning as he goes. (Why do people never seem to remember this?)
This is a valid point. The kid is green when it comes to experience. But as I stated above, I have more problems with Spock than Kirk. Kirk did voice his displeasure (although not loudly) Spock and Uhura just blew him off.

...again... the reason the military has rules that prohibit relationships such as this in the same chain of command.

And just how selfish and un-Star Fleet is Uhura's whine?

"At that volcano, you didn't give a thought to us. What it would do to me if you died, Spock. You didn't feel anything. You didn't care. And I'm not the only one who's upset with you. The Captain is, too."

Didn't she kiss him on the helmet and send him on his way? Don't Star Fleet Officers understand the risk?
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Old June 11 2014, 03:03 PM   #153
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

drt wrote: View Post
2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Now, I know that J.J. Abrams has made it known to all that he's not a STAR TREK fan. Well, I find that a little hard to believe, based on the evidence presented to us, so far.
I'm pretty sure the "I was never really a Star Trek fan" (or however that quote goes) was part of the same Paramount marketing concern about Star Trek insularity that also led to the similarly distancing "not your father's Star Trek" tagline.
I've always wondered how good the movies would've been if he had been a big fan.

(Given he's such a big SW fan, if karma really is a bitch, watch his Star Wars be full of nothing but fanboy fanwank. "Only I know what Star Wars really is, and this is movie is mine, mine, all mine! It's my way or I take my mystery box and go home!" )
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Old June 11 2014, 05:09 PM   #154
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

Franklin wrote: View Post
drt wrote: View Post
2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Now, I know that J.J. Abrams has made it known to all that he's not a STAR TREK fan. Well, I find that a little hard to believe, based on the evidence presented to us, so far.
I'm pretty sure the "I was never really a Star Trek fan" (or however that quote goes) was part of the same Paramount marketing concern about Star Trek insularity that also led to the similarly distancing "not your father's Star Trek" tagline.
I've always wondered how good the movies would've been if he had been a big fan.

(Given he's such a big SW fan, if karma really is a bitch, watch his Star Wars be full of nothing but fanboy fanwank. "Only I know what Star Wars really is, and this is movie is mine, mine, all mine! It's my way or I take my mystery box and go home!" )
That has always been my concern ever since Nemesis. Even though Nemesis is my favorite the Next Gen era movies, it is highly flawed, and a large part of it I attribute to John Logan (co-writer) who said he was a bigtime Trek fan, and wanted to see the Enterprise do things it hadn't done before. This is fine by me, to an extent, but I do think his inner fanboy got just a wee bit carried away, and it resulted in a movie that was largely unpalatable not just to most Trek fans...but to the average movie-goer.




So we'll just have to wait and see if Abrams' inner fanboy rears its ugly head for Star Wars VII.



Thank God I'm not a fan of anything anymore.
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Old June 11 2014, 05:19 PM   #155
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

BillJ wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post

This just isn't true BillJ. They were on a mission, illegally behind Klingon lines... to say nothing was going on is to say that Spock and Uhura were just along so they could argue. This argument is just more evidience that the Spock/Uhura relationship needs to be cut off.
Were they just suppose to sit there with their collective sphincters locked for the duration of the mission?

Like I said in my original post and others have chimed in on: awkward relationship moments usually crop up at the most inopportune time.
also, no one seems to consider here that if Spock truly had a death wish (that is what Uhura questioned) then any officer would have the right to question him in a dangerous mission. It's his casual statement about them having the 90% of chances to die that was the last straw for Uhura and even Kirk was like 'geez thank you'
would Spock help his crewmates if they were in danger or would he just let them all die just to follow unreasonable rules? Could his seemingly implied PTSD be a problem for the mission? I don't know but I think that the LAST thing their team needed was someone with a death wish or whose logic would result in them taking unnecessary risks.


technically, though, both Kirk and Spock could be considered emotionally compromised. Kirk especially due to what happened to Pike, as showed by his behavior when they 'capture Harrison' and the way he started to punch him repeatedly to avenge Pike... totally uncaring of protocol and being professional. Harrison had surrendered and had just saved them all. He served no threat to them in that moment. Kirk beating him was absolutely gratuitous and him abusing his position for a personal reason (he was angry because he held Harrison responsible for killing Pike. He even said it)

with the way the guys keep acting so unprofessional in these movies, it always amaze me that people can nitpick about Uhura's behavior and call her 'whiny' or selfish. Ironically, she was the least directly affected in her job by her feelings than the men, circumstances considered.
Even when Spock was in danger in that volcano and she believed that he'd die there, she still did her job at her station (what were McCoy and Scotty doing away from sickbay and engineering, again?)
EVEN when they save Spock and beam him back to the enterprise, she didn't leave her station to run to him with Kirk and McCoy. She had to ask Kirk from her station if Spock was essentially alive.. and even then, she was doing her job by communicating to her commanding officers the activity of the volcano and thus the fact that Spock's device had worked.
The kronos mission too. I didn't see her running to her boyfriend to see if he was fine, seems to me that her first priority was helping their captain that might have been injured and she dragged his a$$ out of the line of fire with Spock. You did see instances where it's obvious that she did worry for Spock and, viceversa, he surely didn't look cool as a cucumber when she asked him Kirk to let her talk with the klingons (the way JJ zoomed on his face spoke volumes to me) and essentially risk her life. But they never stop each other from doing their duty (he even told Kirk to not interrupt her) or only care about their boyfriend/girlfriend.



Yanks wrote: View Post

Exactly why the relationship needs to end. They wouldn't even listen to their commanding officer when he called them on being stupid.

.. yeah, but using your logic then Kirk shouldn't be allowed to be friends with Spock or anyone there.

He doesn't have a girlfriend but he's the least professional one.
I may also remind you that while Kirk is not Spock's 'whiny girlfriend' HE did whine about Spock's behavior for.. the whole movie? Even more than the afore mentioned girlfriend of his. And he did that even in front of their commanding officer! (Pike) How are you going to comment that, then?
Not only he went against the prime directive, not only he lied in his report of the mission and expected his vulcan first officer to lie for him (along with the rest of the crew, well knowing the risks) but when busted about it instead of taking responsibility of his actions he actually blames Spock for his cultural inability to lie and he makes offensive comments about his vulcan side in front of Pike and other officers.
Do you realize that by referring to Spock the way Kirk did, he might have been accused of being xenophobic towards an alien member of his crew? How is that professional for a captain of a starship were not all the officers are humans?

This is not my reasoning though. I don't care about this stuff, honestly. Nitpicking about the characters being professional or not in a star trek movie is not my priority as I realize that this is not a documentary about the nasa and I can't expect the writers to make me relate to these characters without them being allowed to show their feelings, in some way. These movies are so fast paced I can't expect 'quieter' moments that would allow the characters to interact with the others. Of course they have to kill different birds with one stone.

I'm just saying that if you want to apply your rigid 'military rules' to Uhura, you might as well start to judge the male characters with the same standard.



Yanks wrote: View Post

This is a valid point. The kid is green when it comes to experience. But as I stated above, I have more problems with Spock than Kirk. Kirk did voice his displeasure (although not loudly) Spock and Uhura just blew him off.

actually, when Uhura asked Kirk 'two minutes', Kirk said 'ok' and then he even supported her in the argument with Spock saying that she was 'right' (plus his comment about Spock's words not being 'a love song'. He was clearly trying to help his friend along with his girlfriend)

He did allow the argument. Spock also willingly participated to it... (and even instigated it, tbh, because he heard her comment at the beginning very well and he didn't need to ask her if she had said something, unless he wanted her to talk with him)

...again... the reason the military has rules that prohibit relationships such as this in the same chain of command.
except this is not the army or the nasa.
the trek franchise has hinted in more than an occasion that it’s not against the rules for officers to have relationships on the ship, no matter their rank. If you're gonna forbid romantic relationships then, using your logic, the dudes shouldn't be allowed to make friends either. Don't tell me that Kirk&Co are never unprofessional or not affected and influenced in their job because of their personal relationships with their friends. It would be a blatant lie.
Just think about the things that these characters had done in the name of friendship and then came back here and complain about Spock and Uhura having feelings for one another

also:
Who is to say that in a futuristic utopia-ish society, workplace romance is a no-no? Perhaps it’s fine and allowed. After all, NASA is already having to deal with the potential sexual health of astronauts as they ponder prolonged space flight. May not be unprofessional at all at Starfleet. That view may simply be a remnant of our puritanical society that Starfleet outgrew. - Roberto Orci
it's not against the rules. And if it's not against the rules, then it makes no sense to complain about the characters doing something that is not allowed.
I had the impression, actually, that the crew knows that S/U are dating and no one cares. e.g., Sulu's comment in the shuttle when he said 'sorry' to Uhura for having to leave Spock there. Uhura and Spock kissing in engineering or in the shuttle well knowing that Sulu was there (everyone is too comfortable), Kirk asking them if they could work together, in front of the crew. He wouldn't have done that if he didn't know that their relationship was a public thing and allowed.
No one cares (well, aside you LOL)


And just how selfish and un-Star Fleet is Uhura's whine?

"At that volcano, you didn't give a thought to us. What it would do to me if you died, Spock. You didn't feel anything. You didn't care. And I'm not the only one who's upset with you. The Captain is, too."

Didn't she kiss him on the helmet and send him on his way? Don't Star Fleet Officers understand the risk?
you call it 'whine', I call it a normal discussion one can have in a relationship (this weird thing)
the way you talk about it, you seem to miss the point that they do have a relationship and thus she isn't just having monologue for the sake of it. Not to even mention the function that their discussion has for the narrative, because if it weren't for his girlfriend then our dear Spock (a supposed protagonist with Kirk) would have essentially no chance to remind us that, hello continuity, in the other movie vulcan got destroyed and his mother died and we can't pretend it never happened and he might be even possibly experiencing PTSD (he did, it's written in the comics. But if you don't read them you don't know because the movie did a poor job showing that)

Also, Uhura is no Chapel, you know.
If Spock replied and explained his feelings to her, it's because he obviously wanted to and he needed to because he has his own personal 'selfish' (since your definition of selfish is having feelings in a relationship...) reasons to do so.
So stop projecting, I guess, and talk on the behalf of characters (both kirk and spock here) that didn't seem to share your opinions anyway.


also, friendly reminder that this conversation also happened
Spock: Captain.
Kirk: Not any more, Spock, first officer. I was demoted and you were reassigned.
[they get into the elevator together]
Spock: It is fortunate that the consequences were not more severe.
[Kirk sighs to himself]
Kirk: You gotta be kidding me.
Spock: Captain, it was never my intention to...
Kirk: I'm not Captain. I saved your life, Spock. You wrote a report, I lost my ship.
[the elevator doors open and Kirk starts walking off with Spock following him]
Spock: Commander, I see now I should have alerted you to the fact that I submitted the report.
Kirk: Well, I'm familiar with your compulsion to follow the rules, but you see, I can't do that. Where I come from, if someone saves your life you don't stab him in the back.
Spock: Vulcan's cannot not lie.
Kirk: Then I'm talking to the half-human part of you, alright? Do you Understand why I went back for you?
[they are interrupted by Captain Abbot]
Captain Abbot: Commander, Spock? Frank Abbott, USS Bradbury. Guess you're with me.
Spock: Yes, Captain.
[Abbot walks off and Kirk looks at Spock]
Kirk: The truth is, I'm gonna miss you.
[Kirk waits for Spock to say something, but Spock says nothing, Kirk sighs and walk away]
is Kirk selfish and whiny too, then? and when did these two actually have a friendship on screen that would justify his behavior? This scene happened after a movie where they went from 'i want to kill you' to mutual respect, yet Kirk expects Spock to be.. human and his friend under his terms. And he gets frustrated by Spock essentially being himself and doing his duty/job?
You label Spock's girlfriend (someone with whom he DOES have a relationship and thus every possible realistic reason to take her feelings into consideration) as whiny and selfish because she worried for him as she thought he was being suicidal (and it also made her, understandably so, question his feelings for her) .. but apparently Kirk questioning Spock's ability to have feelings for him, when from Spock's pov they might not even have a personal relationship, is perfectly fine?

seems to me there is a bit of double standard here when it comes to romantic and platonic relationships. You can possibly be the most unprofessional and emotional (duty and off) person when it comes to a friend but God forbid you have feelings for a significant other? uhm ok (this reminds me of the whole 'Spock is OOC with Uhura because apparently vulcans have no feelings. But then him being emotional with the dudes and crying for someone he didn't even consider a friend for 90% of the movie and being homicidal is logical' )
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Last edited by Malaika; June 11 2014 at 05:41 PM.
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Old June 11 2014, 05:25 PM   #156
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

Malaika wrote: View Post

Kirk beating him was absolutely gratuitous and him abusing his position for a personal reason (he was angry because he held Harrison responsible for killing Pike. He even said it)
This is spot-on, also I believe it is why Marcus sent Kirk after him. He hoped that Kirk's feelings for Pike would affect his judgment. Which actually fits the character, as we've seen in episodes "The Conscience of the King" and "Obsession".
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Old June 11 2014, 06:09 PM   #157
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

Yanks wrote: View Post
The Keeper wrote: View Post
He often allowed spats between McCoy and Spock to go on before, during and after the mission.
Never at the detriment of the mission.
I didn't say that. I remember a couple/few times he reined them in with a "Not now..." in the past. This incident didn't happen, as has been clearly pointed out numerous times, at a time requiring full concentration on the mission, they were in transit and as such some off topic chatter wasn't in violation of any protocols, nor did it represent something we'd never seen occurring before in teh canon.

Yanks wrote: View Post
...again... the reason the military has rules that prohibit relationships such as this in the same chain of command.
Modern militaries.

Yanks wrote: View Post
And just how selfish and un-Star Fleet is Uhura's whine?
Un Star Fleet... perhaps. But totally Human.

Yanks wrote: View Post
"At that volcano, you didn't give a thought to us. What it would do to me if you died, Spock. You didn't feel anything. You didn't care. And I'm not the only one who's upset with you. The Captain is, too."

Didn't she kiss him on the helmet and send him on his way? Don't Star Fleet Officers understand the risk?
That's all true, but I think you, (and some others in the past) have missed what it was she was truly angry about. I don't want to just blurt it out as it was very nuanced, meant to be picked up on by the viewer, and I don't want to spoil that moment.

I'll just say rewatch the volcano scene again paying close attention for an event concerning Spock/Uhura immediately after the situation is defused. A specific moment...
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Old June 11 2014, 06:34 PM   #158
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

Franklin wrote: View Post
(Given he's such a big SW fan, if karma really is a bitch, watch his Star Wars be full of nothing but fanboy fanwank. "Only I know what Star Wars really is, and this is movie is mine, mine, all mine! It's my way or I take my mystery box and go home!" )
Help us, Lawrence Kasdan.

You're our only hope.
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Old June 11 2014, 06:44 PM   #159
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

Malaika & The Keeper, thank you for your thoughtful responses.

I'll have to respond later this evening or tomorrow.
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Old June 13 2014, 10:31 AM   #160
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

A few more from me...

Khan's teleport to Kronos
His arrival was incredibly badass. The Terminator-style crouch (none of that beaming from sitting to standing which annoys the heck out of me), the booming thunder (1000x more awesome in the theatre than at home). And the realization that he rematerialized somewhere very far away.

Chekov
Out of his depth in engineering, getting the job done but clearly struggling, trying to take responsibility for anything and everything... it was a small role but a memorable one. And of course, his fourth-wall bending reaction to "go put on a red shirt" was awesome.

Frenemy Khan
During the space jump and fight from the cargo bay to the Vengeance bridge, my brain kept going "OMG Kirk and Khan are a TEAM!" One of those AU twists (culminating with Kirk and Spock in the warp core) designed to screw with longtime fans' heads.

Ambiguity
Kirk (via Scotty) shot first. Was it a huge mistake? Would Khan have eventually betrayed him as explosively as he avenged Kirk's betrayal?

Science Officer 0718
An android? Cyborg? Trekverse Universal Soldier? Whatever he is, he's damn cool.

Big Fucking Ships (another extra nerdy one)
The massive 16-deck saucer core, enormous shuttlebay and engineering sections on the Enterprise, and the ridiculously huge hanger 07 on the Vengeance. Yes, the reboot ships are much bigger than the old ones, and no it definitely was not unintentional or ignorable.

London's Calling
Khan's theme is my favourite of the nuTrek soundtrack.
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Old June 13 2014, 10:41 AM   #161
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

I love the scene where Khan is video-talking to Spock after taking over the bridge of the Vengeance and he goes through all the steps they both are going to take until Khan would come out victoriously. It´s like a chess match, when Spock knows his opponent has the upper hand it doesn´t make sense anymore to continue. Khan beat Spock at his own game. Great scene and great perfomance by Cumberbatch.

@ King Daniel Into Darkness

Great additions to the list
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Old June 13 2014, 12:05 PM   #162
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
I love the scene where Khan is video-talking to Spock after taking over the bridge of the Vengeance and he goes through all the steps they both are going to take until Khan would come out victoriously. It´s like a chess match, when Spock knows his opponent has the upper hand it doesn´t make sense anymore to continue. Khan beat Spock at his own game. Great scene and great perfomance by Cumberbatch.
Technically, Spock beat Khan at his own game. Khan was super-confident and Spock used it against him.
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Old June 13 2014, 01:38 PM   #163
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

You all know I have my issues with the movie, but there are some things I loved about STID as well:

1. Carol Marcus.

I know everyone complains to the hilt about her space undies scene, but I think it's one of those situations where she wanted him to peak. She did have a significant role later in the movie, for all intents and purposes she saved the Enterprise.

You see more than this at the beach.


I'm glad it appears she's going to be part of the team going forward.

2. Sulu's sitting in the captain's chair.

John Cho's potrayal of our favorite helmsman has been outstanding in both movies. This speech to Khan was off the charts good. (love McCoy's response to it too)

Sulu: Attention: John Harrison. This is Captain Hikaru Sulu of the USS Enterprise. A shuttle of highly trained officers is on its way to your location. If you do not surrender to them immediately, I will unleash the entire payload of advanced long-range torpedoes currently locked on to your location. You have two minutes to confirm your compliance. Refusal to do so will result in your obliteration. And If you test me, you will fail.

Bones: Mr. Sulu, remind me never to piss you off.

Right up there with "Fly her apart then!" in TUC.

3. Greenwood and Pine's performance when Pike takes command away from Kirk. For the first time, I think Kirk realized that he had to answer to something. For the first time, he realized he truely didn't grasp what it really means to sit in that chair. Greenwood's Pike was truly outstanding in both movies. I'm sad that he's gone.

4. Scotty resigning. "I thought we were explorers?" brought a tear to my eye. The look of Kirk's face when he excepted was telling as well.

5. Spock out smarting Khan.

Khan: A wise choice, Mr. Spock. I see all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes. If they're not mine, Commander, I will know it.
Spock: Vulcans do not lie. The torpedoes are yours.
Khan: Thank you, Mr. Spock.

Of course, Spock did not lie. Loved it.

There is allot to love in this movie.
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Old June 13 2014, 02:01 PM   #164
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
London's Calling
Khan's theme is my favourite of the nuTrek soundtrack.
Oh come now KingDaniel, don't be shy..

We need to hear it



I know I've listened to this piece a thousand times
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Old June 13 2014, 02:42 PM   #165
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

Yanks wrote: View Post
I know everyone complains to the hilt about her space undies scene, but I think it's one of those situations where she wanted him to peek.
Don't give the writers more credit than they deserve. They're not nearly that sophisticated. They admitted they threw it in for fan-service and they kind of regret it now (just as JJ has even regretted using so much lens-flare, after even his wife started bashing him for it). It was gratuitous by design.

Yanks wrote: View Post
You see more than this at the beach.
If it were Baywatch, The Movie, it would make sense. But to throw it in how they did, when they did, was gratuitous and unnecessary.

As for the lover's spats, again, it's context. Because JJ paced this film like Star Wars Episode IV, there's no space to allow Spock and Uhura to have a relationship moment. All the character moments between Uhura and Spock are happening in the middle of these action set-pieces and cliffhangers. This is what makes it seem "unprofessional". They should be focusing on the mission (as lives depend on their professionalism as military officers) but their minds are drifting back to their selfish romantic issues.

JJ tried to have his cake and eat it too by having Pike tear Kirk a new one for being unprofessional, but he didn't simultaneously allow the plot to punish Uhura and Spock for putting their relationship drama so out front and center when they should have been focused and professional. This, I think, reflects JJ's superficial understanding of the value of military discipline. Kirk sacrificed himself because the needs of the many outweighed the needs of the few. But when it comes to the the rest of the crew he allows them to treat the Enterprise as Ridgemont High.

Not only that, JJ seems to misunderstand Vulcans. He treats the Vulcan adherence to discipline not as an asset but as an emotional handicap. So when Spock loses his cool, it's treated as a way to "humanize" him rather than it being him falling off the wagon of his pseudo-spiritual discipline. It's a subtlety because Spock's character arc intentionally allows him to veer towards humanity, but at never point does Spock reject logic (like Sybok, for instance). Spock integrates measured doses of human emotion into his life. It's the limited way Spock bends the rules that makes the character interesting, not having Spock completely lose it, cry, yell Khan, and run down the guy and punch him senseless.

This mis-reading of the Vulcan mysticism plays into feeling the need to give him a girlfriend. And how much easier can you find him a girlfriend than throwing Uhura at him? And to set it up all off-screen so it's just "there" with no rationale? Why should we believe it or care since we've seen no build-up at all? And they can't because (here we go again) the pace of the film won't allow it to slow down and show a budding romance. So instead you're just given a romance in-medias-res and are expected to just accept it. (And don't even mention pon farr.) It falls flat.
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