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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 11 2014, 12:05 AM   #136
Franklin
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

I just don't understand the age and experience issue. Napoleon had distinguished himself and had influential allies in the right places so that by the time he was only 27, he was named commander of the Army of the Interior in France, then given the head of the Arm of Italy, which is what he had always wanted. He got it through political allies in the Directory, which had overthrown the old government. So someone was pulling strings for the young guy. In 1799, he overthrew the Directory, and soon made himself First Counsel. He was only 30. By 35, he was Emperor of France.

Of all people, Jefferson Davis was a backer of the young George McClellan, noting his accomplishments, including a dangerous reconnaissance mission Davis himself sent him on. By the time he was 29 in 1855, McClellan was a captain. A year later, he wrote a cavalry manual that was adopted by the U.S. Cavalry. By 35, he led the entire Union Army.

Are we saying you can't sell a script to Hollywood where a 30 year-old leads a coup and becomes the leader of France? In the case of McClellan, are we saying a brilliant person can't be recognized for outstanding accomplishments and advanced quickly through the military?

There are skyrockets. They are exceptional in every meaning of the word. Their quick advance is almost beyond explanation. Why in the world can't the great Jim Kirk be one of them?
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Old June 11 2014, 12:16 AM   #137
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

Franklin wrote:
Are we saying you can't sell a script to Hollywood where a 30 year-old leads a coup and becomes the leader of France? In the case of McClellan, are we saying a brilliant person can't be recognized for outstanding accomplishments and advanced quickly in the military?
For that matter take a closer analogue: the American navy, whose youngest-ever Captain was Stephen Decatur in his mid-twenties. It's not at all "impossible" to conceive of a character arc that really sells that kind of meteoric rise and shows a young man as an extraordinary, genuinely convincing and out-of-the-ordinary leader of men.

NuKirk's arc isn't it (they had other priorities for his character) but it's not impossible.

Ovation wrote: View Post
To argue TOS Kirk would not have . . . whatever Pine/Kirk would is to hold Pine/Kirk to an impossible standard and, therefore, wrong. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a fact.
Actually, it was always perfectly possible to write Kirk differently, so this fails. (It is of course "factually" true that TOS Kirk and NuKirk are different characters that have been formed by different experiences. That doesn't change the fact that one of them is believable as a leader of men and the other isn't. If you want to argue that it's "impossible" for NuKirk to have been written as a believable leader of men, that's your row to hoe, I'm not buying that.)
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Old June 11 2014, 12:17 AM   #138
Ovation
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

Franklin wrote: View Post
I just don't understand the age and experience issue. Napoleon had distinguished himself and had influential allies in the right places so that by the time he was only 27, he was named commander of the Army of the Interior in France, then given the head of the Arm of Italy, which is what he had always wanted. He got it through political allies in the Directory, which had overthrown the old government. So someone was pulling strings for the young guy. In 1799, he overthrew the Directory, and soon made himself First Counsel. He was only 30. By 35, he was Emperor of France.

Of all people, Jefferson Davis was a backer of the young George McClellan, noting his accomplishments, including a dangerous reconnaissance mission Davis himself sent him on. By the time he was 29 in 1855, McClellan was a captain. A year later, he wrote a cavalry manual that was adopted by the U.S. Cavalry. By 35, he led the entire Union Army.

Are we saying you can't sell a script to Hollywood where a 30 year-old leads a coup and becomes the leader of France? In the case of McClellan, are we saying a brilliant person can't be recognized for outstanding accomplishments and advanced quickly through the military?

There are skyrockets. They are exceptional in every meaning of the word. Their quick advance is almost beyond explanation. Why in the world can't the great Jim Kirk be one of them?

I agree with everything you've put here and I have no problem with Kirk "getting the chair" faster than a more conventional path would take him.

The only thing about the "age and experience thing" that bugs me is not in the movies themselves, but rather in the complaints that explicitly or implicitly argue something like "TOS Kirk would never tolerate that kind of behaviour" or "TOS Kirk would never do something that reckless or immature or...)". Such complaints miss the entire point of showing us a Kirk that is less mature and experienced.
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Old June 11 2014, 12:30 AM   #139
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

BigJake wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote:
Are we saying you can't sell a script to Hollywood where a 30 year-old leads a coup and becomes the leader of France? In the case of McClellan, are we saying a brilliant person can't be recognized for outstanding accomplishments and advanced quickly in the military?
For that matter take a closer analogue: the American navy, whose youngest-ever Captain was Stephen Decatur in his mid-twenties. It's not at all "impossible" to conceive of a character arc that really sells that kind of meteoric rise and shows a young man as a convincing leader of men.

NuKirk's arc isn't it (they had other priorities for his character) but it's not impossible.

Ovation wrote: View Post
To argue TOS Kirk would not have . . . whatever Pine/Kirk would is to hold Pine/Kirk to an impossible standard and, therefore, wrong. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a fact.
Actually, it was always perfectly possible to write Kirk differently, so this fails. (It is of course "factually" true that TOS Kirk and NuKirk are different characters that have been formed by different experiences. That doesn't change the fact that one of them is believable as a leader of men and the other isn't. If you want to argue that it's "impossible" for NuKirk to have been written as a believable leader of men, that's your row to hoe, I'm not buying that.)

But more importantly, it's basically irrelevant to someone who is simply talking about whether the character is compelling and not looking for an excuse for any differences.
You're still missing the point. I'm not talking about a "differently written NuKirk". I'm talking about the one we actually get. And the one we get onscreen can certainly be criticized. But he CANNOT be expected to show the same degree of maturity, experience and overall competence that TOS Kirk, a decade older and more experienced (as well as having different life experiences), shows. No more than a 14 year old Wayne Gretzky could be expected to be as accomplished as a 24 year old Wayne Gretzky. Or a 21 year old Abraham Lincoln compared to one in his mid-forties.

So if someone is going to say that NuKirk should be criticized for not nipping the Spock/Uhura "argument" in the bud because someone with real leadership skills would have done so--fine. However, to argue TOS Kirk would have nipped that argument in the bud is not a fair criticism. A) He benefits from a decade of experience and maturity the other simply cannot have and B) if the suggestion is that TOS Kirk, at NuKirk's age, would have nipped it in the bud, there is no way to know that and so that too becomes an unfair criticism.
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Old June 11 2014, 12:36 AM   #140
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

Ovation wrote:
So if someone is going to say that NuKirk should be criticized for not nipping the Spock/Uhura "argument" in the bud because someone with real leadership skills would have done so--fine. However, to argue TOS Kirk would have nipped that argument in the bud is not a fair criticism.
TOS Kirk is the most obvious alternative to compare him to, so I guess I don't really care whether that's "fair"? To whatever extent that even means anything given the many different ways NuKirk could have been delivered?
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Old June 11 2014, 12:37 AM   #141
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

Actually, I love the opening of STID exactly because it shows how inexperienced and reckless Kirk still is after a year in the chair. The opening scene is full of stupidity and irresponsible behavior for a leader. Wonderful, deliberate, entertaining, and delightful, stupidity and irresponsibility. A perfect contrast to a 36 year-old TOS Jim Kirk, who would've tried to save those people, too, but not that way. A cock-sure 26 year-old Kirk who "hasn't lost a crewman, yet," would pull exactly that stunt. Kirk always had some hubris and felt invulnerable to varying degrees. But that scene on Nibiru was hubris without temperance, and he may have mixed feeling invulnerable with feeling immortal. Brilliant scene.

It actually vindicates all those at the end of ST09 who said he wasn't prepared to captain the Enterprise. From what he did on Nibiru, he probably wasn't.
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Old June 11 2014, 12:42 AM   #142
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

^ His arc in STID is of course all about him learning to be a real leader. Which makes total sense for an officer of his age and experience and character, in every respect but one.
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Old June 11 2014, 12:53 AM   #143
Ovation
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

BigJake wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote:
So if someone is going to say that NuKirk should be criticized for not nipping the Spock/Uhura "argument" in the bud because someone with real leadership skills would have done so--fine. However, to argue TOS Kirk would have nipped that argument in the bud is not a fair criticism.
TOS Kirk is the most obvious alternative to compare him to, so I guess I don't really care whether that's "fair"? To whatever extent that even means anything given the many different ways NuKirk could have been delivered?
Coulda, woulda, shoulda. I'm not interested in them. I'm interested in the one that actually is there. And Franklin gets it right, for the umpteenth time.
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Old June 11 2014, 01:18 AM   #144
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

Ovation wrote: View Post
Coulda, woulda, shoulda. I'm not interested in them.
Good for you.
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Old June 11 2014, 01:21 AM   #145
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

Ovation wrote: View Post
And Franklin gets it right, for the umpteenth time.
+1
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Old June 11 2014, 01:36 AM   #146
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

BigJake wrote: View Post
Kirk of old was never shy about reprimanding anyone or cracking down on unproductive bullshit, that was one of the key things that sold him as a leader.
I can remember lots of times in TOS when Spock and McCoy were bickering and Kirk didn't do a damn thing.
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Old June 11 2014, 01:47 AM   #147
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

nightwind1 wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
Kirk of old was never shy about reprimanding anyone or cracking down on unproductive bullshit, that was one of the key things that sold him as a leader.
I can remember lots of times in TOS when Spock and McCoy were bickering and Kirk didn't do a damn thing.
Pfft. Those don't count.
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Old June 11 2014, 01:50 AM   #148
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

I don't need 12 reasons to love STAR TREK: Into Darkness. The one suffices:

It's good.

It's damn good. It's entertaining popcorn fare that I wish TOS could've been like, right out of the box. Not that The Original Series isn't great, I love the campyness of it and the "theatre" experience it reminds me of, alot of the time, due to its limitations. Now, I know that J.J. Abrams has made it known to all that he's not a STAR TREK fan. Well, I find that a little hard to believe, based on the evidence presented to us, so far. These ReBoot movies - good stuff! Of course, I realize his first love is STAR WARS, so I understand his not being there to direct STAR TREK "Three." But I really feel he should be on the set, directing it. Now's not the time to bail out, when you're on a winning streak, you know? Don't break the spell ...

We need that J.J. Abrams magic!
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Old June 11 2014, 01:52 AM   #149
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

BillJ wrote: View Post
nightwind1 wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
Kirk of old was never shy about reprimanding anyone or cracking down on unproductive bullshit, that was one of the key things that sold him as a leader.
I can remember lots of times in TOS when Spock and McCoy were bickering and Kirk didn't do a damn thing.
Pfft. Those don't count.


I used to like the frustrated look Kirk would get on his face, sometimes. Sorta like, "Here we go again." He probably learned over time that the best thing to do most often was just let them go at it and get it overwith.

Edited to add: If Pike had lived, Kirk probably would've been his first officer for the entire first five year mission, and maybe all of the second. By then, Kirk's relationship with Pike would've turned into the type of deep affection that Spock Prime had for Pike Prime after serving on his ship for thirteen years. If in later years, Pike had gone on to meet the fate of Pike Prime, it would've most likely been Kirk doing what Spock Prime did in "The Menagerie". I always found that an interesting contrast between the two universes. Pike being so important to Spock in one, and Kirk in the other.
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Old June 11 2014, 02:18 AM   #150
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

BigJake wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote: View Post
Coulda, woulda, shoulda. I'm not interested in them.
Good for you.
It is, thanks (especially since I wasn't addressing anything but what we actually got onscreen).
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