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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 10 2014, 05:28 PM   #121
martok2112
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

BigJake wrote: View Post

BillJ wrote:
awkward relationship moments usually crop up at the most inopportune time.
Shame there wasn't a commanding officer there to quash that nonsense and remind them of their priorities.
Lol. This is one issue I'm of two minds on. On the one hand, yes, Kirk could've used his position and pulled rank and say "Hey, you two, if you don't knock it off, I'm gonna turn the ship around!"

But, OTOH, Kirk and Uhura basically came up through their classes together as classmates (if not, at first, as friends)...so their relationship, rank notwithstanding, is fairly informal. This is another thing I like about the Abrams Treks in that, even though I'm inclined to believe that Starfleet IS a military organization, the JJ films often avoid the military trappings on the Enterprise, especially since some of Kirk's crew are former fellow classmates and peers. Kirk and Uhura, in their more private moments, can speak more as friends, rather than CO and subordinate. (a dynamic that exists often in the real-world military). (witness the turbolift scene where Uhura let's Kirk know "it's not you." for an example.). Later, in the K'normian transport, when they are about to enter Ketha Province on Q'onoS, the "friends" relationship is a bit more prevalent rather than the Captain and crew dynamic. I thought it rather charming.

I also liked the brief dynamic between Kirk and Mr. Hendorf (aka Cupcake). You can see the sort of Captain/subordinate dynamic between them (even though they both are/were also classmates), but it is not a grudging distinction from Hendorf...rather it comes across as a matter of heartfelt respect. Kirk got them through the Nero/Narada incident, and Kirk has a solid grip on the situation to try and avoid war with the Klingons, from Hendorf's POV. Something tells me that Hendorf would ferociously defend the life of his Captain not just as a matter of duty, but a matter of friendship.

Personal opinions only.
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Old June 10 2014, 05:29 PM   #122
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

BigJake wrote: View Post

"It takes time" can't really be used as an excuse for anything in an AbramsTrek movie, I don't think. Massive time cheats are part and parcel of the whole breathless-pacing thing that helped sell them.
You're right. But then there's the flip side of the coin where people complain that they jumped right to the fighting on Kronos. That we didn't see them going there.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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Old June 10 2014, 05:34 PM   #123
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

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Kirk of old was never shy about reprimanding anyone or cracking down on unproductive bullshit, that was one of the key things that sold him as a leader.
Never seen him bullshit with other members of the crew about a Chess match on the way to the bridge to answer a potential distress call. No sir. Never happened.
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Old June 10 2014, 06:08 PM   #124
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

BillJ wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post

Exactly why the relationship needs to end. They wouldn't even listen to their commanding officer when he called them on being stupid.
Kirk has always ran a loose command and allowed those around him to say what they needed to say. The reason he allowed it to go on was because it was obviously important to one of his officers to say what needed to be said before they potentially died.
Kirk never allowed a lovers spat to interfere with the mission.

...and the fact that Spock even acknowledged her selfish whining speaks to just how much the writers don't understand the character that is Spock.
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Old June 10 2014, 07:38 PM   #125
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

He often allowed spats between McCoy and Spock to go on before, during and after the mission.
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Old June 10 2014, 08:06 PM   #126
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

BillJ wrote: View Post
Never seen him bullshit with other members of the crew about a Chess match on the way to the bridge to answer a potential distress call.
Never seen his crew simply ignore him when tried to set the priorities of a mission or task, more like. Because that wasn't something he would put up with.
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Old June 10 2014, 08:32 PM   #127
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

BigJake wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Never seen him bullshit with other members of the crew about a Chess match on the way to the bridge to answer a potential distress call.
Never seen his crew simply ignore him when tried to set the priorities of a mission or task, more like. Because that wasn't something he would put up with.
Much earlier in his career. Still learning as he goes. (Why do people never seem to remember this?)
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Old June 10 2014, 08:34 PM   #128
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

Ovation wrote: View Post
Much earlier in his career. Still learning as he goes. (Why do people never seem to remember this?)
I was kind of leaving that aside to avoid opening the whole "why is he in the Captain's chair at all?" can of worms.
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Old June 10 2014, 08:36 PM   #129
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

The dynamic between Kirk and his officers is unquestionably different in the two Abrams films than it was before. Personally, this change works when viewed through the different set of events and experiences that brought them all together aboard the Enterprise.

TOS Kirk would have probably put a stop to the Spock-Uhura fight but, then again, he also wouldn't have discussed Spock with Uhura earlier in the film. The relationships are different in many ways than they were before.

In TOS, only Bones and (sometimes) Spock had the personal relationship with Kirk to call him out when it was required. Now, many of the senior officers share that relationship: Spock, Uhura, Scotty and (still) Bones.
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Old June 10 2014, 08:38 PM   #130
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

BigJake wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote: View Post
Much earlier in his career. Still learning as he goes. (Why do people never seem to remember this?)
I was kind of leaving that aside to avoid opening the whole "why is he in the Captain's chair at all?" can of worms.
False equivalency. He's less experienced than in non-Abrams iterations. Full stop. And less experienced means A) not as good as at his peak and B) cannot be held to the same standards as at his peak. Why he's captain at all is immaterial to the point.
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Old June 10 2014, 08:42 PM   #131
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

The Stig wrote:
The dynamic between Kirk and his officers is unquestionably different in the two Abrams films than it was before. Personally, this change works when viewed through the different set of events and experiences that brought them all together aboard the Enterprise.
I agree. Actually, most elements of most of the relationships make sense in context.

Ovation wrote: View Post
False equivalency. He's less experienced than in non-Abrams iterations. Full stop.
I don't know where "equivalency" comes into it. He's less experienced, and logically, less experienced officers learn their trade at lower ranks before they're given heavier responsibilities. That's what ranks and chains of command are all about. Bringing up how his inexperience supposedly explains this or that will inevitably raise the question of why he's in command; sorry if that upsets or frustrates you, but it's a pretty natural and normal question to ask.

(I mean, obviously the meta-reason he's in command is because He's Jim Kirk And You're Not. But one reason we see Jim Kirk in the Captain's chair in his mid-to-late thirties in TOS is to help make him believable as someone who's developed the experience to be there, someone who the stories can sell as a confident and respected leader. He isn't there because of brute Marty Stu-ism.)
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Old June 10 2014, 09:00 PM   #132
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

BigJake wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote: View Post
False equivalency. He's less experienced than in non-Abrams iterations. Full stop.
I don't know where "equivalency" comes into it. He's less experienced, and logically, less experienced officers learn their trade at lower ranks before they're given heavier responsibilities. That's what ranks and chains of command are all about. Bringing up how his inexperience supposedly explains this or that will inevitably raise the question of why he's in command; sorry if that upsets or frustrates you, but it's a pretty natural and normal question to ask.

(I mean, obviously the meta-reason he's in command is because He's Jim Kirk And You're Not. But one reason we see Jim Kirk in the Captain's chair in his mid-to-late thirties in TOS is to help make him believable as someone who's developed the experience to be there, someone who the stories can sell as a confident and respected leader. He isn't there because of brute Marty Stu-ism.)
It doesn't matter why or how he got there for the purpose of this specific point. The ONLY point I raised is that we cannot hold Pine/Kirk to the same standards as TOS/Kirk because he is less experienced as a captain. Too many complaints about Pine/Kirk are made as though he should be just as excellent a captain as TOS/Kirk--including this issue of coping with "the argument". It's a crap complaint because it rests on an impossible standard. The entire reason we're seeing Pine/Kirk at an earlier stage, with flaws honed away by experience for TOS/Kirk, is to show that it took some doing to get from one to the other (leaving aside their rather different life experiences in each timeline). I'd expect TOS/Kirk to react differently than Pine/Kirk in the same situation. That's the whole freakin' point!
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Old June 10 2014, 09:05 PM   #133
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

Kirk appears to be in command in large part due to Pike's influence in the fleet. Pike has decided (for whatever reason) that he believes in Kirk and has, as a result, persuaded the upper ranks to allow Kirk to continue on as captain. This is, frankly, ridiculous and totally not in keeping with military customs and traditions. It is in this way that Abrams Trek most closely resembles the Trek of yesteryear.

Abrams Trek is full of little narrative shortcuts like this one that I don't really agree with but they don't stick in my craw long enough to ruin the experience. For example:

All it would have taken would be a throwaway line and a brief change of scenery to move Trek '09 from the Academy to, say, five years into Kirk's career and many of the problems people have with his ascension to the captaincy would be rendered moot. Similarly, removing Scotty's "I've been gone one bloody day" line from STiD would fix the ridiculously compressed timeline of that film and leave it much more satisfyingly ambiguous.
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Old June 10 2014, 09:08 PM   #134
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

The Stig wrote:
Kirk appears to be in command in large part due to Pike's influence in the fleet. Pike has decided (for whatever reason) that he believes in Kirk and has, as a result, persuaded the upper ranks to allow Kirk to continue on as captain. This is, frankly, ridiculous and totally not in keeping with military customs and traditions. It is in this way that Abrams Trek most closely resembles the Trek of yesteryear.
Zing!

Ovation wrote: View Post
The ONLY point I raised is that we cannot hold Pine/Kirk to the same standards as TOS/Kirk because he is less experienced as a captain. . . It's a crap complaint because it rests on an impossible standard.
It's not an "impossible" anything, it's just the consequence of an artistic choice. Having a younger, more inexperienced and more vulnerable Kirk makes him a widely likeable and relatable character (arguably better-adapted to today's media environment than some swaggering icon of Sixties masculinity). But it also means trade-offs in terms of how compelling the character is as a leader and how believable he is in the Captain's chair.
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Old June 10 2014, 11:26 PM   #135
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

BigJake wrote: View Post
The Stig wrote:
Kirk appears to be in command in large part due to Pike's influence in the fleet. Pike has decided (for whatever reason) that he believes in Kirk and has, as a result, persuaded the upper ranks to allow Kirk to continue on as captain. This is, frankly, ridiculous and totally not in keeping with military customs and traditions. It is in this way that Abrams Trek most closely resembles the Trek of yesteryear.
Zing!

Ovation wrote: View Post
The ONLY point I raised is that we cannot hold Pine/Kirk to the same standards as TOS/Kirk because he is less experienced as a captain. . . It's a crap complaint because it rests on an impossible standard.
It's not an "impossible" anything, it's just the consequence of an artistic choice. Having a younger, more inexperienced and more vulnerable Kirk makes him a widely likeable and relatable character (arguably better-adapted to today's media environment than some swaggering icon of Sixties masculinity). But it also means trade-offs in terms of how compelling the character is as a leader and how believable he is in the Captain's chair.
None of which changes a single thing about the impossibility of holding Pine/Kirk to the standard of TOS/Kirk. I have been in my field of work for nearly 25 years. It would be grossly unfair to assess my abilities in my second year in the profession and expect me to have met the same standards of performance I could achieve in my tenth or fifteen year. To do so with my younger self would be holding that self to an impossible standard of performance. It really is no more complicated than that.

This does not mean one cannot criticize either Pine/Kirk's performance as captain, or mine in my own field. Nor was I stating, explicitly or implicitly, otherwise. My point was, and remains, very specific and correct. To argue TOS Kirk would not have (insert complaint of your choice about tolerating types of behaviour, choosing to do or not do something in the face of specific conditions...) whatever Pine/Kirk would is to hold Pine/Kirk to an impossible standard and, therefore, wrong. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a fact.
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