RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 143,252
Posts: 5,603,034
Members: 25,411
Currently online: 524
Newest member: V'alkis


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 6 2014, 10:18 AM   #211
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England
Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Jeyl wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
So did the TNG Enterprise - take a look at all the firepower it unloads in "Best of Both Worlds", yet they're a ship of peaceful exploration in the most PC Trek of them all.
Yeah, and it did all that with about a dozen phaser arrays and two torpedo launchers (which it only used one). Just because you don't have that many launchers doesn't mean you can't be efficient at combat. So why add more launchers when clearly one is enough?
Why have all those weapons on the TNG ship when in 99.99% of the time one beam or photon at a time will do?

Because it looks cool when they can afford to do it. That's all.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 6 2014, 03:44 PM   #212
Jeyl
Commodore
 
Jeyl's Avatar
 
Location: Asheville, NC
Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Because it looks cool when they can afford to do it. That's all.
Being cool is nice and all, but other Star Treks have done a much better job at conveying ship-to-ship combat than simply resorting to "This ship is just better because it's bigger and more advanced." The Reliant from TWOK didn't look to be more advanced than the Enterprise and it certainly didn't look like it would have won in a fight had Kirk been properly prepared for one. There's a lot going on that determines who has the upper hand in a fight than just being in a better ship.

And if you're going to make something cool for the sake of it looking cool, why not actually go all out with it? Have the Enterprise fire all those torpedoes at once instead of trying to make the ship more like seaship with multiple broadside canons.
Jeyl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 6 2014, 07:08 PM   #213
Chemahkuu
Vice Admiral
 
Chemahkuu's Avatar
 
Location: United Kingdom
Send a message via Yahoo to Chemahkuu
Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Star Trek has *never* portrayed ship to ship combat remotely accurately or realistically, and it never will. That's boring, time consuming, visually uninteresting for everyone involved and boring.

I am perfectly happy with how STID portrayed the combat in it as it did everything it set out to, entertain people. If you honestly think Gene wouldn't have been doing this every week on TOS if he could have, I don't know what to tell you.
__________________
"But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake."
Chemahkuu is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 6 2014, 09:04 PM   #214
Jeyl
Commodore
 
Jeyl's Avatar
 
Location: Asheville, NC
Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
Star Trek has *never* portrayed ship to ship combat remotely accurately or realistically, and it never will. That's boring, time consuming, visually uninteresting for everyone involved and boring.
Where did I ever say that Star Trek should depict it's space battles more realistically? All I was doing was conveying how lazy the whole "bad guys are in bigger and more deadly ships" is especially when Star Trek was at it's best when it didn't have to rely on that trope. It wasn't about which battle was the most realistic, it was about which one better benefited the story.

In TWOK, the first battle between the Reliant and the Enterprise was all about Kirk and Khan coming head to head with one another. Kirk is arrogant and over confident which results in him reacting too slowly to Khan's sneak attack. Khan still has a gloating ego and is inexperienced with star fleet protocols, so when he taunts Kirk for the sake of it, he is giving Kirk time to figure out a way to fight back at Khan using his star fleet inexperience as a starting point. This one battle scene shows both the advantages and disadvantages that the good guys and bad guys have. When they square off again in the Mutara Nebula, they've changed their game. Khan is no longer going to stop and gloat to Kirk when he has the upper hand, and Kirk isn't going to under estimate Khan or cut off important advice from his fellow officers.

All we get from STID is that the Vengeance is a tough ship that can beat up the Enterprise. That is it. Anyone can write "bigger ship beats up a little ship", but it takes a good writer to show a little ship beating up a big ship.
Jeyl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 6 2014, 09:09 PM   #215
Chemahkuu
Vice Admiral
 
Chemahkuu's Avatar
 
Location: United Kingdom
Send a message via Yahoo to Chemahkuu
Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Which ultimately means very little.
__________________
"But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake."
Chemahkuu is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 6 2014, 09:21 PM   #216
Franklin
Rear Admiral
 
Location: In the bleachers
Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Anyone can write "bigger ship beats up a little ship", but it takes a good writer to show a little ship beating up a big ship.
Not to provoke anything, but why? And the writers did have the little ship win.

Scotty sabotaged the big ship, and as a result, Kirk and Khan took over the bridge. If Kirk had been more conscientious about subduing Khan, it would've been game over right there.
It may have not been a phaser-blasting, photon torpedo lobbing fight that led to the Enterprise defeating the Vengeance, but Kirk did take the ship from Marcus. The little ship did win, but Kirk mishandled Khan, and that cost him his victory.

Then, after Khan took the Vengeance, Spock used the 72 torpedoes to fatally damage the ship. Again, the little ship did win.
__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain

Last edited by Franklin; June 6 2014 at 09:34 PM.
Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7 2014, 10:16 AM   #217
Belz...
Fleet Captain
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Location: In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Jeyl wrote: View Post
The Reliant from TWOK didn't look to be more advanced than the Enterprise and it certainly didn't look like it would have won in a fight had Kirk been properly prepared for one.
Actually it WAS more advanced, and more heavily armed.
__________________
And that's my opinion.
Belz... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7 2014, 12:46 PM   #218
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Belz... wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
The Reliant from TWOK didn't look to be more advanced than the Enterprise and it certainly didn't look like it would have won in a fight had Kirk been properly prepared for one.
Actually it WAS more advanced, and more heavily armed.
Where has that been stated?
JarodRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7 2014, 05:22 PM   #219
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England
Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Jeyl wrote: View Post
All we get from STID is that the Vengeance is a tough ship that can beat up the Enterprise. That is it. Anyone can write "bigger ship beats up a little ship", but it takes a good writer to show a little ship beating up a big ship.
Admiral Marcus plans to make war with the Klingon Empire using small, under powered ships. Yeah, that fits the story perfectly.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7 2014, 10:27 PM   #220
Jeyl
Commodore
 
Jeyl's Avatar
 
Location: Asheville, NC
Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
All we get from STID is that the Vengeance is a tough ship that can beat up the Enterprise. That is it. Anyone can write "bigger ship beats up a little ship", but it takes a good writer to show a little ship beating up a big ship.
Admiral Marcus plans to make war with the Klingon Empire using small, under powered ships. Yeah, that fits the story perfectly.
Considering that Marcus had only one warship and his plan involved destroying Starfleet's flagship, I think the story is too broken to have anything fit in coherently.
Jeyl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 8 2014, 11:06 AM   #221
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England
Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

We saw one ship. Earlier Khan says he was developing "ships (plural) and weapons."

But of course you're just deflecting because a smaller and less powerful Starfleet ship would not have fitted the story of ID at all. And as for Wrath of Khan's Reliant, lots of blueprints and manuals available after the movie's release (which called it an "Avenger-class Heavy Frigate") talked about "megaphaser cannons" which were more powerful than the Enterprise's phaser banks, although I don't know if that was based on behind-the-scenes movie notes or was just from the blueprinter's imagination. Reliant definitely had aft-firing torpedoes, which the Enterprise seemingly didn't.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 8 2014, 11:37 AM   #222
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Well, well. Actually going back and watching the movie as a whole, rather than as a series of snippets, was both fun and informative...

- The original question of why 72 torpedoes would be needed is a misguided one. The movie never features the concept of firing 72 torpedoes.

Rather, Kirk's ship is stocked with torpedoes, either as many as she can carry, or then as many as there exist. We see plenty of room for more torpedoes in the shuttlebay, so the logical answer is the latter. And Khan, as part of his plan, could easily have seen to it that only 72 torpedoes (the special ones) would survive his bomb strike.

But having those 72 torps aboard is Khan's plan, not Marcus'. Marcus would be within his dramatic rights to simply order the loading of all existing long range torpedoes on the Enterprise, in hopes that Kirk expends as many of them as he can before being martyred. That is, the Admiral might plausibly miss the fact that the number is a familiar one.

Sulu never says he is going to fire all the torpedoes; indeed, at that point, some still reside on the shuttlebay deck. It's just that, after triumphing in the planetside fight, Khan suddenly asks Kirk a complete non sequitur, and Kirk sees no reason not to answer (as this might save his life for the moment). Khan wants to know how many torpedoes there are, not how many should be fired at him.

So we don't need to try and rationalize why Marcus wanted that many torps fired. That isn't part of the movie; Marcus just provided Kirk with ammo and told him to finish off Harrison with it, and Kirk would no doubt have used his tactical judgement in the actual firing.

Which probably means he was given some sort of specs on what the torpedoes could do, as a basis for such judgement. Possibly false specs, even, so that he would think in terms of a surgical strike but would end up massacring a planetful of cute Klingon babies.

- Khan says he was exposed, but he never says his plan was. So odds are that the plan proceeded as, well, planned (at least in its v 1.1 form, the one that included saving that girl's live, bombing the archives/arsenal, and shooting at the admirals): the crewsickles in the torpedoes got delivered the way Khan intended, even if he temporarily may have lost hope.

- There's quite a bit of screen time, never mind in-story time, for Spock to take the cryotubes out of the torpedoes. The last time we see sickbay free of cryotubes is fifteen screen minutes before the torps are beamed over to Khan, and that must be at least half an hour of in-universe time - but the existence of the cryotubes is revealed much earlier and gives Spock hours to perform the act behind Khan's (and, necessarily, Kirk's) back.

- Nothing suggests the Vengeance would have been unique or even supersecret, or that the dreadnought category of ships would have been. All we learn is that the specific dockyard wasn't open to public and that Kirk wasn't among the Starfleet personnel informed of the project.

- Khan's rambling about the aft nacelle isn't a fumbled line - it's a (fumbled?) looped line, spoken while the camera is pointed elsewhere. It almost looks as if the line originally was shorter and didn't have the "located" bit, but was artificially extended in the editing phase to allow for a reaction shot that was deemed important.

- While Kirk's ship gets some momentum from Khan's phaser blasts just before the torpedo detonations, we don't get the things I was hoping for: absence of the Moon from the shots when the firing commences, or plausible slots for extra time in the sequence. So the aphysical plunge from the Moon to Earth still is about a day or three too fast.

- OTOH, that detonation scene shows pitifully small explosions in terms of what would be needed to really bring down Harrison at Ketha... Unless we assume the Vengeance hull contained the explosions superbly (but they don't get appreciably bigger even after the hull is ripped open).

Make of all that what you will. But we really don't have to worry about the plan being to fire exactly 72 torps at Harrison, because that's never specified.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 8 2014, 07:21 PM   #223
Set Harth
Rear Admiral
 
Set Harth's Avatar
 
Location: Angmar
Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Timo wrote: View Post
That is, the Admiral might plausibly miss the fact that the number is a familiar one.
He knows that Khan's people are in the torpedoes. They are given to Kirk deliberately. There's nothing for him to "miss".

Timo wrote: View Post
Sulu never says he is going to fire all the torpedoes
Yes, he does.

Timo wrote: View Post
Khan says he was exposed, but he never says his plan was.
That makes no sense whatsoever. How can Khan be exposed without his plan being exposed? Without his plan, what is Khan being exposed as doing?
__________________
Just walk away, and there will be an end to the horror.
Set Harth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9 2014, 10:24 AM   #224
Belz...
Fleet Captain
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Location: In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote:
Actually it WAS more advanced, and more heavily armed.
Where has that been stated?
Well you can see more torpedo launchers and phaser cannons on it. And the higher registry was meant to show that it's more advanced. I read this in an interview in the official fan club magasine back in the 90s. I don't have that anymore.
__________________
And that's my opinion.
Belz... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9 2014, 04:24 PM   #225
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
That is, the Admiral might plausibly miss the fact that the number is a familiar one.
He knows that Khan's people are in the torpedoes. They are given to Kirk deliberately. There's nothing for him to "miss".
But once again, there's no sense in him giving Kirk Khan's crew, when what he wants is the Klingon war. So any excuse for him accidentally giving Kirk Khan's crew is preferable to him doing it deliberately. Otherwise we have an idiot plot, even when we are supposed to be dealing with supersmart criminals.

Timo wrote: View Post
Sulu never says he is going to fire all the torpedoes
Yes, he does.
No, he doesn't. The number "72" only pops up when Khan specifically asks Kirk.

Timo wrote: View Post
Khan says he was exposed, but he never says his plan was.
That makes no sense whatsoever. How can Khan be exposed without his plan being exposed? Without his plan, what is Khan being exposed as doing?
Marcus thought Khan was working for him, on pain of his crew getting killed. But then Marcus found out Khan had stolen the crew and hidden it, and thus was in the process of betraying Marcus. End of Khan's usefulness, beginning of Khan as a threat.

So Khan fled and started plan v 1.1, a plan that only makes sense if Khan still expects the crew-torps to be delivered to him - a plan in which Marcus must be played for a sucker, just like Marcus plays Kirk for a sucker.

Really, this isn't a case of us taking what is on screen for granted, for two very pressing reasons:

- There are two villains who lie to Kirk, to each other, and to the audience. We cannot believe what they say, except perhaps at the very end of the movie (and their lives).
- There is a complex and unlikely plot that can only work in a select few ways, all of which require us to accept things that weren't spelled out in dialogue.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:36 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.