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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old June 6 2014, 03:14 AM   #16
2takesfrakes
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Re: TNG Rewatch: 4x20 "Qpid."

When I referenced Janice Rand, I just meant in that it was decided that the Captain wasn't going to be "allowed" to have a regular female in his life. I wasn't going for a deeper connection than that, with regards to Vash, even though Hetrick wasn't a regular cast member. Perhaps the comparison was a mild stretch, after all, but if any woman should've been Picard's steady love interest, it should've been Vash.

TNG just wasn't going to do anything about Crusher and Picard getting together, which I found to be absurd. In my view, with Riker as the in-house studd, there was no need to worry about who Old Man Picard got with, or didn't get with. So let him have a long-term relationship. But, as it was, Picard didn't want Crusher and Vash wasn't going to get many episodes. After that, I can't think of anyone Picard got with who I thought made sense or was a good fit. The imaginary Eline, from the Mind Probe, doesn't count. And having Vash run off with Q instead was kind of interesting, I suppose. But that never went anywhere, either. None of the relationships in TNG ever did.

I'm surprised that O'Brien's marriage lasted. But Vash ended up serving her purpose, well-enough. She released Picard's inner fantasies and reminded the audience that he wasn't just and old fogey. He could still hook The Hotties and keep them dangling. Now, whether this was because they had a Daddy complex, or they just saw him as a Sugar Daddy, or used him for his Sexual Experience, or his 24th Century French Accent, I really couldn't say. But one thing is for certain - Vash wasn't the first sexy young woman he had. And she wasn't about to be the last, either. She was, however ... the most memorable.
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Old June 6 2014, 04:07 AM   #17
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Re: TNG Rewatch: 4x20 "Qpid."

I think Neela Darren was a bit better fit for Picard. She seemed to be a decent merger of both Crusher and Vash.

Vash brought out a lot in Picard (another problem I sort of had in this episode. It goes along with the "too little Robin Hood" stuff but contrasts it in that we don't get enough Picard/Dax stuff) but it's hard to really see their connection as we're mostly "told" it rather than really shown it. They talk and behave like they're deep friends and lovers when as far as we, the audience knows, they're just two people who met and knocked boots together one weekend. Have they been keeping contact over subspace in the intervening year? It seems like we're missing a LOT of their relationship when she first comes on board.

But I don't think any lasting relationship between the two could ever happen. Vash's roguish behavior and tendency to get in trouble/engage in slightly illegal behavior I don't think would mix well in the long-term with Picard.

Neela Darren was a bit fit for Picard.

Well, besides Crusher.
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Old June 6 2014, 02:30 PM   #18
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Re: TNG Rewatch: 4x20 "Qpid."

Neela Darren is a good character and "Lessons" is a fantastic character piece for Picard. The Picard/Darren relationship in Lessons does an excellent job of making the point that having a romantic relationship with someone who is in your direct chain of command is exceedingly difficult. The many pitfalls of such a romantic entanglement between a captain and one of his officers are shown in Picard's romantic relationship with Lieutenant Commander Darren. In my opinion, this episode more than Beverly walking out at the end of "Attached" or the failed marriage and divorce in the alternate timeline of "All Good Things" was the death knell of any canon P/C relationship. The very same pitfalls of fraternization would have happen in a P/C romantic relationship. Picard makes it very clear in the end of the episode 'Lessons' that he personally CAN NOT handle placing his lover in harms way.
"I've lost people under my command, people who were very dear to me. But never someone I've been in love with." Picard goes on to say, "I knew I could never again put your life in jeopardy."

In "Lessons" we see Picard flirting and making love to Nella Darren (to the point allowed by network sensors). The chemistry isn't as fiery as it is with Vash, the interplay is a bit more subdued but he is obviously smitten. However, I personally prefer the more impassioned relationship with Vash. "Captain's Holiday" shows a relaxed, off-duty Jean-Luc Picard flirting and making love to Vash (again to the point allowed by network sensors). They have amazing sexual chemistry and sparks fly when they bicker with each other, culminating in the way he bellows at her about the dangers involved in going to Sarthong V. In "Qpid" we see how Picard is prone to taking extreme actions concerning Vash, storming a castle single handily and running Sir Guy through with a broad sword while the two men duel over her. From a purely dramatic stand point (and this is a TV show after all) I find Vash just to be more fun and more interesting than Neela Darren.

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Old June 6 2014, 03:08 PM   #19
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Re: TNG Rewatch: 4x20 "Qpid."

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
TNG just wasn't going to do anything about Crusher and Picard getting together, which I found to be absurd.
Really? I don't know why some fans find this 'absurd' or a big slip-up on the produers part. It was his dead mate's wife. Even if you did feel something for her, you wouldn't act on it.

I think the Picard/Crusher relationship was struck just right. Mutual affection but an understanding they would never act on it (possible futures, alternate realities and non-canonical novels notwithstanding).
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Old June 6 2014, 03:10 PM   #20
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Re: TNG Rewatch: 4x20 "Qpid."

Trek Survivor wrote: View Post
Really? I don't know why some fans find this 'absurd' or a big slip-up on the produers part. It was his dead mate's wife. Even if you did feel something for her, you wouldn't act on it.
Pretty sure that rule goes out the window when the wife is a hot red-head.
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Old June 6 2014, 06:29 PM   #21
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Re: TNG Rewatch: 4x20 "Qpid."

One of the things I loved about the episode Qpid was the way Vash completely outsmarts both Picard and Q. Vash was not intimidated by Q in the least and she completely derailed Q's little Robin Hood scenario by cozying up to Sir Guy and talking her way out of the execution. It was Picard's gallantly heroic, if somewhat sexist, insistence on saving his ladylove that gave Q the win. Q admitted he had no control over the scenario and that at noon the next day it would end. If Picard had left well enough alone Vash and Sir Guy would have had their little mock wedding and the game would be over. This was why Q looked absolutely panicked when Vash comes down the steps with Sir Guy. She had beaten Q at his own game. There is a thread in Gen Trek talking about writing women, in Vash we have a well written, intelligent and interesting female character.


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Old June 6 2014, 08:27 PM   #22
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Re: TNG Rewatch: 4x20 "Qpid."

Yeah, Nellie, that's something I really liked about this episode. Vash outsmarted Q! He was actually ANNOYED that she foiled his little plan. That little aspect beginning Q's interest in Vash was a nice little part of this episode.

Still, Vash's personality and tendencies would still clash with Picard's over the long term. There's no way she could be more than a fling to him, he wouldn't tolerate a relationship with someone with such roguish, borderline if not overline, illegal proclivities. She certainly did bring out the best in Picard and maybe he in her, but any lasting relationship would have been disastrous.
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Old June 6 2014, 11:45 PM   #23
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Re: TNG Rewatch: 4x20 "Qpid."

This is a fun episode, I liked that part where the female crew starts smashing pots over the guards heads.

The only thing I hate is how the whole point of this episode was Q getting Picard to go after what he wants and rescue Vash... only to not go after her in the end. Makes it somewhat frustrating.

I think she could have been a permanent part of the show. They had some clash but it was in a good way. Picard can let his hair down every once in a while about her illegal activities, or maybe Vash could have legitamized her operation a little, but with some compromise it'd be fine. I mean, Picard spends his free time in crime dramas on the holodeck so he's attracted to that sort of thing.

I also didn't care for the resolution to Lessons, although I haven't seen it in a while. He couldn't order her into danger, so they have to end it? Again neither character is compromising. I found the reasons for Picard to drop these relationships pretty weak. Why's everyone in the future so cool with breaking up at the first problem. Just put her on another ship and skype or something.

Last edited by Makarov; June 6 2014 at 11:56 PM.
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Old June 7 2014, 12:26 AM   #24
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Re: TNG Rewatch: 4x20 "Qpid."

The only thing I hate is how the whole point of this episode was Q getting Picard to go after what he wants and rescue Vash... only to not go after her in the end. Makes it somewhat frustrating.
Q's point was more to show Picard that his love for Vash was a weakness that could have gotten him or his crew killed.
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Old June 7 2014, 12:05 PM   #25
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Re: TNG Rewatch: 4x20 "Qpid."

Trek Survivor wrote: View Post
I don't know why some fans find this 'absurd' or a big slip-up on the producers part. It was his dead mate's wife. Even if you did feel something for her, you wouldn't act on it.

I think the Picard/Crusher relationship was struck just right. Mutual affection but an understanding they would never act on it (possible futures, alternate realities and non-canonical novels notwithstanding).
As far as Jack Crusher's death went, despite it being brought up a surpring amount, over the course of the series' run, it was established very early on, in "FARPOINT" I believe, that this had happened some years before. And also, that Beverly had dealt with it enough, in some fashion, where she knowingly and actively sought assignment on the very ship that Picard, himself, was commanding. In short ... whilst Jack's loss is palpable, it has, in fact, been put in its proper place and Bev is in a position to "move on."

And, as you pointed out, Bev & Johnny had mutual affection and had come close to acting on it, in a couple of episodes. Hell, she was ready to rape The Good Captain in his own Ready Room, had him stammering and tripping over himself and the whole bit. In fact, Bev was actually jealous, I tell you - jealous - over his old flame catching up with him in "We'll Always Have Paris."

And on it went, until such time as TNG got bored with the sexual "tension" between the two and decided to just drop it. But it was heavily implied, for the longest time that a relationship between them was, indeed, forthcoming. At one point, it even seemed like they were trying to hint at Wesley being Picard's Love Child! Wisely, they dropped that idea. And if Rick and his staff wanted Bev & Johnny to hook up, permanently, let's face it, that's exactly what would've happened. That's it and all about.
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Old June 7 2014, 12:26 PM   #26
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Re: TNG Rewatch: 4x20 "Qpid."

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
And if Rick and his staff wanted Bev & Johnny to hook up, permanently, let's face it, that's exactly what would've happened. That's it and all about.
Berman had his bosses as well. Could be that it never evolved due to those bosses.
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Old June 7 2014, 12:52 PM   #27
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Re: TNG Rewatch: 4x20 "Qpid."

True, Rick Berman did insist upon keeping Gene Roddenberry's vision "alive" as much as possible. Not only in TNG, but in the marginally experimental DS9, even ... and beyond. And in TOS, if The Good Captain came anywhere near finding himself in a potentially committed relationship, something horrible befell upon her - up to, and including, death! ... DEATH!!! Let's not even be concerned with giving her a subplot of her own, or suggest she could have any sort of existance, afterwards. Kill her off and pretend like it never happened. God forbid a T.V. station show these episodes out of order and people end up confused, like, "wait a minute ... wasn't Kirk with Edith Keeler? I thought they were married, but now ... now, he's kissing up on Dr. Pulaski and having much too good a time doing it!" And I can only imagine that Gene was not willing to entertain the idea of an ENTERPRISE Captain that's married, or Living in Sin for those reasons - despite their being a resident studd onboard!
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Old June 7 2014, 04:25 PM   #28
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Re: TNG Rewatch: 4x20 "Qpid."

IIRC it was Roddenberry who was against the idea of Picard and Crusher getting romantically involved, which is why Rick didn't go for it. Being the guy who tried to preserve "Gene's vision" wasn't going to break those rules. That's why it took all the way up to the seventh season for the two characters to finally acknowledge their attraction, but even after that it was "nah, let's not confuse syndicated rerun viewers". "All Good Things..." getting away with it can probably be chalked up to "it's an alternate reality".

Anyway, I really dig "Qpid". It's always nice when Trek goes out on location shooting and away from the stuffy sets. It's such a goofy episode, but it makes it special because I don't think TNG had enough romp episodes like TOS and eventually DS9 had. Q isn't the menacing adversary in this story but I think he still works in the same overall theme of trying to encourage these humans to excel at the challenges he presents.
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Old June 7 2014, 04:36 PM   #29
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Re: TNG Rewatch: 4x20 "Qpid."

A fun romp episode, it doesn't really stand up to too much scrutiny and it's basically a Holodeck malfunction show but it's just got the right level of cheese to make for an entertaining 45 minutes.

The main problem is that the sexism of the final fight (as said above, what logic would mean Geordi can handle a sword but the girls can't? Even give them all unlikely skills for the sake of the plot or be a bit fairer in dishing out the uselessness) is just bizarre and felt terrible even when I was a kid.
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Old June 7 2014, 06:27 PM   #30
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Re: TNG Rewatch: 4x20 "Qpid."

Makarov wrote: View Post
I think she could have been a permanent part of the show. They had some clash but it was in a good way.
Agreed. In my opinion, Vash is one of those underutilized characters with a virtual goldmine of untapped potential. Around the fourth season, Michael Piller, the show's associate executive producer, inquired about marrying Picard to Vash to provide some new story dynamics for Picard. The studio executives killed the idea of marrying off the captain. The shipboard marriage idea survived in the fourth season episode "Data's Day" where Miles O'Brien married Keiko Ishikawa. If they had gone that direction with the Vash character would they have shown more of Vash's academic side? Would they have put her on dig sites or in lecture halls? (DS9's episode "Qless" refers to the Daystrom Institute wanting her to speak on her travels.) Would they have shown more of Picard's interest in archaeology? Or would Vash have become a reoccurring bit player, the officer's wife/civilian scientist role that Keiko played?

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