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Old June 6 2014, 08:21 AM   #46
GalaxyX
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Re: Why, oh why did the writers have Jadzia Dax and Warf marry?

CaptainCag wrote: View Post
Dukhat wrote: View Post
And that's all you have to contribute to this topic?
I'm simply wondering if anyone else thought it was terrible writing. You don't need to delve deep into every subject. This was simply written in as filler.

Now if you have nothing to say about the actual topic itself rather than what I have to say, I'll ignore you and your snobby attitude.
Their "romance" was one of the worst ones in Trek.

I even prefer the "romance" between Riker and that androgynous lady. As bad as that was, at least they both actually had genuine feelings for each other.

Worf/Jadzia was the most fucking forced thing in DS9, with Kira/Odo coming in a close second.

Worf and Jadzia had absolutely *zero* chemistry with each other, and it was established that Jadzia loved to try different poles, as it became part of her "enlightened" fun loving attitude toward relationships. Worf was the exact opposite, seeing every possible relationship as always ending in marriage.

I have no idea what the writers were thinking, except maybe to throw themselves (and their audience) a bone, by perpetuating the "ugly guy can get the hot chick" trope.

At least the Leeta/Rom relationship was meant to be humorous.
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Old June 6 2014, 04:58 PM   #47
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Re: Why, oh why did the writers have Jadzia Dax and Worf marry?

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
The wedding was disappointing. No TNG characters, and the location was Quark's bar? That was rather cheap.

IIRC, it was more of a rushed wedding to explain why not everyone was there.
Yep, they move the wedding forward so to have it before Alexander left the station on a new assignment.
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Old June 6 2014, 10:38 PM   #48
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Why, oh why did the writers have Jadzia Dax and Worf marry?

I agree the actors had little chemistry with each other but I think the personalities match up very well for a romantic relationship.

Or at least a lot of 'social engineering' theory would suggest that a 'King' personality type and a 'Magician' personality type would find each other very attractive.
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Old June 9 2014, 02:05 PM   #49
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Re: Why, oh why did the writers have Jadzia Dax and Warf marry?

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
Worf/Jadzia was the most fucking forced thing in DS9, with Kira/Odo coming in a close second.
I agree, but I do see chemistry beween Worf and Jadzia. It would have been better if they had stayed officer colleagues and friends, though. And Odo and Kira... it makes me shudder when I think of them. Even Dax and Odo would have been more plausible, after all, they share memories since that Curzon incident.
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Old June 9 2014, 04:27 PM   #50
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Re: Why, oh why did the writers have Jadzia Dax and Worf marry?

I'm a Worf/Jadzia 'shipper from waaaaaay back, so this is right up my alley

I often wonder if "Let He Who is Without Sin" hadn't happened, would there be more people on board with Worf and Jadzia. I also wonder if a lot of the people who don't like them had previously been rooting for Jadzia and Julian.

I admit to becoming a DS9 convert when Worf joined. He was my favorite on TNG and I was happy to see his character continue.

I truly think Worf makes more sense for Jadzia than Julian did. And not just because of the Klingon stuff. Dax has been alive for 350+ years when Jadzia comes to DS9. The symbiont has been married several times, in countless relationships. Julian lays it on thick right away, but where is the challenge in that? We all know that Dax loves a challenge and Worf presents that. He is something new, something intruguing. He's doesn't start hitting on her like most other men do, and that gives her something to work towards.

We see it from the first scene of them together in The Way of the Warrior and from there things just build. There are scenes throughout season 4 that show them building a friendship with some pretty heavy sexual tension underlying it (see the teaser in Sons of Mogh or their scenes together in Bar Association if you don't believe me). The writers initially didn't intend to put the characters together romantically but the way that Dorm and Farrell play their scenes together made it obvious.

So when she pulls that bat'leth out of the air in "Looking for Par'Mach" it's not out of the blue, we've had a year of build up. The unfortunate thing is that their first relationship establishing episode just happens to be one of the worst in the whole series. But from then on they just get better and better.

In terms of obvious outward romantic chemistry, you're not going to get a lot from Worf, period. He's just not that guy and he explains why very eloquently in "Let He Who is Without Sin" (the only redeeming scene in that episode, IMO). His love for Jadzia is much more subtle and nuanced. Just because he's not falling all over her doesn't mean it's not there. He tells her things and shares parts of himself with her that he never shares with anyone else. His devotion to her culminates in "Change of Heart," I don't see how anyone can deny how much he loved her after that.

Now, I will say that I think Jadzia's character development (not that there had been a ton anyway) suffered after Worf came. Way back then I actually thought Kira would be the one to suffer when he joined, but it was Dax. She was the Klingon expert but Worf trumps her in this department. Once the two of them paired up she never got her own episode that didn't involve being his girlfriend/wife.

Another criticism that I have is that I think what was missing was a subplot of Worf taking the time to get to know/appreciate something about her Trill culture. Even though we see a lot of build up between the two of them in season 4, Worf never actively pursues Jadzia. Instead he goes for Grilka, only accepting what's been building between him and Jadzia after he can't get Grilka. It can make it seem like Jadzia is just a substitute for the fact that he can't have a real Klingon woman. That's something I would have loved to have seen addressed (and actually did address in a few of my own fanfics).
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Old June 10 2014, 06:39 AM   #51
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Re: Why, oh why did the writers have Jadzia Dax and Worf marry?

..........I also wonder if a lot of the people who don't like them had previously been rooting for Jadzia and Julian.............
I admit that, Bashir having been my favorite character (he's not anymore. I don't really know if I have one now) I wouldn't have minded if they had gone in that direction.

I saw the whole Worf/Jadzia relationship as forced because they have zero in common.

I've dated girls where we had zero in common, and you have no idea how difficult it is to keep a relationship like that going. Biggest problem ends up being that we hate the things our significant other likes, and only works if both parties can compromise and learn about each other.

It was clear neither Worf nor Jadzia were capable of doing this, so it always ended up as "Worf, I hate how you're forcing me to do this" and Worf replying "Jadzia, I hate how you never take anything seriously!!!" then a passionate kiss, then "Let's get married"

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Old June 12 2014, 05:06 AM   #52
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Re: Why, oh why did the writers have Jadzia Dax and Worf marry?

I loved it. I thought the relationship and subsequent wedding was enjoyable, and felt real enough to me. Of course, my favorite couple on DS9 was Odo/Kira. So romantic.
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Old June 12 2014, 05:36 AM   #53
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Re: Why, oh why did the writers have Jadzia Dax and Worf marry?

I'm ok with the Jadzia/Worf romance because it was short-lived. Jadzia had a Klingon background because of the blood oath thing, so I guess it kinda works. Jadzia/Bashir would have been better, but only if they saved it until the end. As with Jim/Pam in The Office, as soon as they hooked up, they became uninteresting characters.

What I hated was the Odo/Kira romance because it dragged along for half the show, and was never compelling.

Rehashing a bit of Ezri with Worf, ugh.
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Old June 12 2014, 06:44 AM   #54
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Re: Why, oh why did the writers have Jadzia Dax and Worf marry?

What I hated was the Odo/Kira romance because it dragged along for half the show, and was never compelling.
Half of the series was Odo pining for Kira. Then last 2 seasons in, she all of a sudden realizes she cares about him too. Seemed a little forced to me.

I did laugh at their first kiss though, and Quark's stare

That was enough for me that I don't hate the idea.

I think Jadzia/Bashir would have been a nice combo.

Kira and Worf might have been interesting, they both have huge tempers and they both like taking out their anger by sparring. At least it would have been more believable than "Oh yeah BTW Jadzia is an expert in Klingon martial arts too" that we got.
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Old June 12 2014, 04:50 PM   #55
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Re: Why, oh why did the writers have Jadzia Dax and Worf marry?

Bad Thoughts wrote: View Post
Terry Farrell put her sitcom chops to work. And they were physically well matched for one another.
- I would very much agree with that. They were well matched as the lusty, light-hearted couple on DS9. While Dax and Worf were very different people; they had comedic aspects to both their characters that made them mesh well as a couple. They made a nice contrast to the complex and angsty O/K. Personally I thought D/W were a cute couple but not to terribly interesting. Something I've noticed that DS9 did with many of their couples was have two polar opposite personalities come together. And I don't mean that just in a romantic sense. The meshing of two polar personalities would usually bring about lots of issues but there would always be something that they would have in common that would pull them together.

Lance wrote: View Post
It was sort of hinted at early on that he always had a crush on Jadzia, but yeah it still felt like a pair-the-spares move given that Ezri was *not* Jadzia! It was also kinda like Chakotay and Seven getting hooked up on Voyager, it was just such a "Oh jeeze, the show's ending? Better, um, pretend we've given these guys some character development and hope the viewers don't notice."
- I don't understand Trek's need for last minute couples. Now I haven't seen the end of TNG so I won't comment on W/T. As for J/E there was some build up to that (in season 7) and they even had something to build off of with previous J/J. But I never found them very fascinating and pairing them up was not needed. Personally, I thought Julian's relationships with Garak & O'Brien were much more interesting than Jadzia or Ezri. As for C/7, that was handled horribly. They had no chemistry and no build up. The producers just decided lets hook them up with out much thought to the fact that both characters had no common ground for a romance. They had started to add a friendship to them (which I liked) but for them to suddenly hook up off screen was really bizarre. Every single one of Trek's last minute couples do not last past the series end. I never understood why they kept doing something that never seemed to work out in the end.

jimbotron wrote: View Post
What I hated was the Odo/Kira romance because it dragged along for half the show, and was never compelling.
- I watched the series in it's entirety for the first time (last year) in roughly three months. So maybe it's different seeing them build up O/K for years. But I personally liked the super slow build up that lead to them getting together. It seems like the producers/writers tried to write away from them, but something always made them go back to them. I thought that they were one of Trek's more interesting couples. A couple with tragic undertones which that made for interesting problems. When they got together were pretty light hearted (at first) as a couple and then Chimera happened and I think that episode upgraded from them the typical Trek couple.

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
Kira and Worf might have been interesting, they both have huge tempers and they both like taking out their anger by sparring.
- IMO, Too similar in personality. I think that relationship would have gotten old fast and would have floundered with no where to go.
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Old June 16 2014, 09:59 PM   #56
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Why, oh why did the writers have Jadzia Dax and Worf marry?

jimbotron wrote: View Post
I'm ok with the Jadzia/Worf romance because it was short-lived. Jadzia had a Klingon background because of the blood oath thing, so I guess it kinda works. Jadzia/Bashir would have been better, but only if they saved it until the end. As with Jim/Pam in The Office, as soon as they hooked up, they became uninteresting characters.

What I hated was the Odo/Kira romance because it dragged along for half the show, and was never compelling.

Rehashing a bit of Ezri with Worf, ugh.
I was happy they got Jim and Pam together earlier rather than later. The one thing that I hate most about most romantic storylines in TV shows is that they drag on the will they/won't they crap for years longer than it's welcome. Sure, they struggled to find as compelling storylines after they got together, but if they had kept dragging it on it would have been far worse.

That's one thing I liked about the Worf/Dax relationship is at least they got to the point quickly and didn't drag on the manipulative teases.

Jadzia/Bashir might have been interesting but it would have felt a little bit in the male wish fulfillment category of relationships where the dorky kinda pathetic guy gets the hot woman because it's okay for men to be shallow but not women, right?

I think I like the idea of Quark/Dax better than Worf or Bashir.
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Old July 9 2014, 06:50 AM   #57
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Re: Why, oh why did the writers have Jadzia Dax and Worf marry?

I thought real hard about it.

Jadzia and Worf got married, because well they where in a relationship, in love and wanted to take the next logical step.

That's what loving couples do, sometimes .

I enjoyed their relationship. I really did.

But...

Sometimes, I do ponder if they where better as a couple then as Husband and Wife.

Maybe it was a subtle change of chemistry.

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Old July 9 2014, 09:13 AM   #58
Last Redshirt
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Re: Why, oh why did the writers have Jadzia Dax and Worf marry?

Speaking as someone who only watched it through netflix, but avoided everything related to spoilers online, I really didn't like it and I thought it would've been better if Bashir had ended up with her instead. It all seemed rather contrived and sometimes really insufferable. Not to say that some of Bashir's scenes with her wasn't incredibly annoying, it just made more sense to deliver on that buildup of his list. Hell, you don't even need them to get married. Make it a plot arc and explore the stages of a relationship, right to the breakup and all that drama involved. Everything in the beginning kind of hinted to there being something in the future for them but it was just pushed under the carpet.


Also, I liked the Kira/Odo relationship. It was kind of cute, and made a hell of a lot more sense than Worf and Jadzia.
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Old July 9 2014, 04:50 PM   #59
Lance
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Re: Why, oh why did the writers have Jadzia Dax and Worf marry?

So much great discussion going on in this thread now guys, especially considering it was started as an obvious troll thread. Keep it up guys, love reading this stuff!
milquetoast wrote: View Post
Bad Thoughts wrote: View Post
Terry Farrell put her sitcom chops to work. And they were physically well matched for one another.
- I would very much agree with that. They were well matched as the lusty, light-hearted couple on DS9. While Dax and Worf were very different people; they had comedic aspects to both their characters that made them mesh well as a couple. They made a nice contrast to the complex and angsty O/K. Personally I thought D/W were a cute couple but not to terribly interesting. Something I've noticed that DS9 did with many of their couples was have two polar opposite personalities come together. And I don't mean that just in a romantic sense. The meshing of two polar personalities would usually bring about lots of issues but there would always be something that they would have in common that would pull them together.

Lance wrote: View Post
It was sort of hinted at early on that he always had a crush on Jadzia, but yeah it still felt like a pair-the-spares move given that Ezri was *not* Jadzia! It was also kinda like Chakotay and Seven getting hooked up on Voyager, it was just such a "Oh jeeze, the show's ending? Better, um, pretend we've given these guys some character development and hope the viewers don't notice."
- I don't understand Trek's need for last minute couples. Now I haven't seen the end of TNG so I won't comment on W/T. As for J/E there was some build up to that (in season 7) and they even had something to build off of with previous J/J. But I never found them very fascinating and pairing them up was not needed. Personally, I thought Julian's relationships with Garak & O'Brien were much more interesting than Jadzia or Ezri. As for C/7, that was handled horribly. They had no chemistry and no build up. The producers just decided lets hook them up with out much thought to the fact that both characters had no common ground for a romance. They had started to add a friendship to them (which I liked) but for them to suddenly hook up off screen was really bizarre. Every single one of Trek's last minute couples do not last past the series end. I never understood why they kept doing something that never seemed to work out in the end.
Well, not to actually want to spoil anything about TNG ( so look away now if you don't want to know ), but I think the real problem with Worf/Troi wasn't that it was a late addition -- as I mentioned earlier in the thread, it was at least seeded with their developing friendship since Season 5, Troi being made Alexander's Godmother, etc, there was plenty enough foreshadowing -- but the problem is that it reaches a cresendo in the "All Good Things" finale... and then it just kind of, well, vanishes. Mostly because they moved to movies and they didn't want to hang over too much TV continuity for the newcomers, but for those of us who've followed the characters through the TV shows, "All Good Things" just kind of leaves it hanging. Which is unsatisfying. It implies that they might not hook up after all, but it doesn't state it outright. And then if one follows the TNG movies without watching DS9, one gets no further impression of them ever having been a pairing at all. Early drafts of NEMESIS at least had the decency to acknowledge that they'd been an item in the past, but those scenes were cut from the eventual movie.

As stated I totally agree about Chakotay/Seven. That one really was a weak connect.

Last Redshirt wrote: View Post
Also, I liked the Kira/Odo relationship. It was kind of cute, and made a hell of a lot more sense than Worf and Jadzia.
I have to be honest and say I never much liked Kira/Odo. I appreciate their friendship, I appreciate their unique bond, but the romantic angle, while well acted, just never rang 'true' to me. I did like Kira/Bariel, thought that was a very strong storyline earlier on, but Odo's increasing infatuation with Kira (and her eventual reciprocation of it) was just one I was never that fond of.
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Old July 10 2014, 03:59 AM   #60
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Re: Why, oh why did the writers have Jadzia Dax and Worf marry?

The novel Imzadi II:Triangle does give closure to the Troi/Worf relationship, as well as show Worf grieving for Jadzia in the framing narrative. It's a good read.

I never really liked Worf and Jadzia. Their chemistry didn't click for me, and Jadzia idolizing Klingon culture too much, so she bends to his cultural issues too much without him doing the same. I did kind of want Jadzia with Julian, but funny enough, I didn't like him with Ezri, but I did like Ezri with Worf. Ezri didn't see the Klingons thru rose colored glasses like Jadzia, so she had a more balanced and realistic attitude towards them, and thus was more independent in her "relationship" with Worf, while Jadzia seemed to lose a lot of her individuality with Worf.

I didn't care for Kira and Odo as a couple. I think Kira would've been a more interesting pairing for Worf too. She would appeal to him as a strong, formidable woman, but she had her own strong cultural identity and life of her own and shouldn't have become so reduced by Worf the way Jadzia was.
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