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Fan Productions Creating our own Trek canon!

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Old May 25 2014, 06:38 PM   #91
JarodRussell
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Re: Phase II Kickstarter

Tom wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
The producers would be liable, not the actors.
This
But technically, the fan film producers don't make a profit, while the actors do?
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Old May 25 2014, 07:25 PM   #92
GSchnitzer
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Re: Phase II Kickstarter

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Tom wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
The producers would be liable, not the actors.
This
But technically, the fan film producers don't make a profit, while the actors do?
Yes, and when the producers go to Home Depot to buy plywood with which to build the Star Trek Transporter Room set, Home Depot makes a profit on said purchase.
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Old May 25 2014, 07:28 PM   #93
JarodRussell
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Re: Phase II Kickstarter

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Tom wrote: View Post

This
But technically, the fan film producers don't make a profit, while the actors do?
Yes, and when the producers go to Home Depot to buy plywood with which to build the Star Trek Transporter Room set, Home Depot makes a profit on said purchase.
But Home Depot has no knowledge of what the guy does with the plywood. So no legal responsibilities when an illegal action is performed with it (take the most extreme example: guy buys hammer to kill someone: Home Depot is not responsible because they sold him the hammer).

But an actor (usually) would know that he works and gets paid for the fan film.

Similarly, if the costume designer gets paid to design Star Trek costumes, I'd say he could be liable, but the store he buys the fabrics from isn't.

Would there be a legal distinction between a guy who makes Star Trek costumes and sells them (and the one who makes a fan film just orders those on ebay), and a guy who makes Star Trek costumes and sells them on order (by the one who makes a fan film)? And what if these roles are not clearly defined, because it all just happens in someone's garage, nothing is thoroughly documented?

Last edited by JarodRussell; May 25 2014 at 07:43 PM.
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Old May 25 2014, 09:15 PM   #94
GSchnitzer
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Re: Phase II Kickstarter

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
But technically, the fan film producers don't make a profit, while the actors do?
Yes, and when the producers go to Home Depot to buy plywood with which to build the Star Trek Transporter Room set, Home Depot makes a profit on said purchase.
But Home Depot has no knowledge of what the guy does with the plywood. So no legal responsibilities when an illegal action is performed with it (take the most extreme example: guy buys hammer to kill someone: Home Depot is not responsible because they sold him the hammer).

But an actor (usually) would know that he works and gets paid for the fan film.

Similarly, if the costume designer gets paid to design Star Trek costumes, I'd say he could be liable, but the store he buys the fabrics from isn't.

Would there be a legal distinction between a guy who makes Star Trek costumes and sells them (and the one who makes a fan film just orders those on ebay), and a guy who makes Star Trek costumes and sells them on order (by the one who makes a fan film)? And what if these roles are not clearly defined, because it all just happens in someone's garage, nothing is thoroughly documented?
Yes, it's a mess (or at least ostensibly it's a mess; maybe there's some "simple" legal principle that makes sense of it all). Contract Law: not my forte.

It would be interesting to know what would happen if our hypothetical killer announced in advanced to Home Depot what he planned on doing with his hammer purchase. Does Home Depot's responsibility change?

Similarly, do actors who dress up in Starfleet uniforms wandering around a bridge set have to give back their SAG-mandated money--but yet some guy who is brought in to play some ND alien in some Second Unit pick-up shots who has no idea what the full script is all about gets to keep his pay because he was never informed that the footage was for a fan-based "Star Trek" project?

My hunch is whatever legal principle is in force here probably functions independently of whether various participants along the supply chain have foreknowledge of what other later-step participants intend. It would be difficult to ascertain who knew other parties intend. Likely legal responsibility circumvents having to go through the rigmarole of making that determination.
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Old May 25 2014, 09:21 PM   #95
Potemkin_Prod
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Re: Phase II Kickstarter

As the folks who filmed in our garage (or more accurately, our carport) for three years, I'm going to point out that none of our actors have ever gotten paid or received compensation, despite some of them being professional actors.

Our costume designer gives us a bill, but it's not for her work; it's for the fabric and other materials. For this weekend's shoot, the Andorian costume cost us $14.85 in materials for the vest, $3.50 for an off-the-rack purple mock turtleneck, $10.70 for a pair of black pants off the rack from Dollar General. She does not bill us for the time she puts into a costume.

Our VFX guys do not get paid. Our music guys do not get paid. Our website designers do not get paid. Our makeup guys do not get paid. None of the cast or crew gets paid.

So who do we pay? We keep meticulous books and records: Lowes, Joann's Fabrics, various makeup or appliance or costume companies (including Amazon and eBay). The food for our lunch break is donated, often by friends of the production, or by my family. I personally pay the rent, the insurance, the utilities because I like what I'm doing. It's no worse than the hundreds of dollars other people spend on season sports events tickets, collecting stamps, going to concerts, and the like.

Donations are occasionally solicited, but almost always for a specific project. General donations go into wardrobe or set construction and maintenance. We can show where we've spent every penny donated, and we can show how much of our own personal money has gone into the production.

Project: Potemkin is written, acted, directed, edited, produced by our cast and crew for the fans. It's a labor of love, and it saddens me that some folks have turned it into a business. We're not the big guys; we don't have delusions of grandeur that our web series will be "picked up" by CBS. We're here to have fun, not to create some pretense that we're anything more than we are.

The bottom line is that we're a fan film, and we're content to be just that.
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Old June 3 2014, 05:56 PM   #96
AustNerevar
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Re: Phase II Kickstarter

I have laughed, cried, and learned a lot from this thread.

It's been a unique ride.
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Old June 4 2014, 02:18 AM   #97
PattyW
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Re: Phase II Kickstarter

JarodRussell wrote: View Post

Similarly, if the costume designer gets paid to design Star Trek costumes, I'd say he could be liable, but the store he buys the fabrics from isn't.

Would there be a legal distinction between a guy who makes Star Trek costumes and sells them (and the one who makes a fan film just orders those on ebay), and a guy who makes Star Trek costumes and sells them on order (by the one who makes a fan film)? And what if these roles are not clearly defined, because it all just happens in someone's garage, nothing is thoroughly documented?
Actually, the COSTUMES are the one area that CBS has clear definitions and, in fact, enforces them.

Bottom line is that you can make and sell CUSTOM MADE Star Trek uniforms. You cannot "openly" make a bunch of uniforms and sell them. As in, "I have 10 large captains, 10 medium Spock's" CBS has and does shut those sales down on eBay and elsewhere. (People still get away with it at cons, etc, where there is no CBS legal team wandering around looking for these sellers)

People also use a loophole of selling "individual" costumes...as in, "I have this large sitting here if you want it"...which CBS allows.

Usually. They've been known to just randomly get Star Trek costumes pulled off eBay - stuff they have no right to get pulled. Like Klingon costumes.

Legally - they can't actually do any of the above, but they do it anyway, and eBay listens.

The LAW says that you cannot copyright a garment. Anyone can make velour or doubleknit tunics that look exactly like the ones on Star Trek, etc, and nothing can be legally done to stop it. The ONLY thing that is licensed on the uniforms is the Delta Shield insignia. Technically, you can legally sell as many as you want as long as the insignia isn't on them... but you can also claim that you bought the insignia from Rodd.com and therefore can sell them with the insignia.

CBS actually DID go after a well known costumer several years ago (before Anovos and Pillsbury bought any licenses). It went to court and they were scolded by the judge for wasting the court's time and told to get a better legal team that actually knew something about fashion law.

In short - costumers are the one set of people that continually irritate the dentures of CBS and they are always on the cusp of being contacted by them. Simply, you can't throw proof in the face of CBS that you are making a living selling Star Trek costumes. When they are bored, or annoyed, or what have you, they'll get the sales shut down.
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Old June 4 2014, 11:50 AM   #98
AustNerevar
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Re: Phase II Kickstarter

andriech wrote: View Post
You cannot "openly" make a bunch of uniforms and sell them.
Which blows my mind. When I was a kid, the only people who sold Star Trek uniforms were third party vendors. You couldn't get an "official" uniform. Believe me, I scoured startrek.com, which I was always in the chat room of.
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Old June 4 2014, 06:03 PM   #99
ssosmcin
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Re: Phase II Kickstarter

Well, if you grew up in the 70's, you could get licensed Star Trek shirts by Donmoor. They had the insignia, long and short sleeve, red, gold and blue, only missing the rank braids. They had black cuffs instead. Oh, and you had to be a child to wear them.
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Old June 4 2014, 06:12 PM   #100
AustNerevar
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Re: Phase II Kickstarter

ssosmcin wrote: View Post
Well, if you grew up in the 70's, you could get licensed Star Trek shirts by Donmoor. They had the insignia, long and short sleeve, red, gold and blue, only missing the rank braids. They had black cuffs instead. Oh, and you had to be a child to wear them.
Fortunately, I was a millennial, so I had the internet to find uniforms and such. I just always thought it was bizarre, as a kid, that Paramount didn't sell official uniforms for their most popular series.
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Old June 4 2014, 08:48 PM   #101
ClayinCA
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Re: Phase II Kickstarter

I'm still annoyed that no one makes or sells a robe like the one Spock wears in Star Trek: The Motion Picture when he boards the Enterprise and in STII when Kirk visits him in his quarters. I'd love one of those!
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Old June 5 2014, 06:10 AM   #102
Tommunist
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Re: Phase II Kickstarter

Excited to learn that Phase II will have a booth at this weekend's ComicCon in Niagara Falls Ontario. (Also, Shatner will be there Sunday!).
Not only will they have a booth and showings of past episodes along with Q&As, the Canadian premiere of "The Holiest Thing" is set for Sunday.
Definitely worth the short drive from Buffalo!
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Old June 5 2014, 05:56 PM   #103
Ronald Held
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Re: Phase II Kickstarter

Shouldn't Phase II have a presence at the Las Vegas Trek con?
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Old June 5 2014, 10:56 PM   #104
jojolimited
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Re: Phase II Kickstarter

Ronald Held wrote: View Post
Shouldn't Phase II have a presence at the Las Vegas Trek con?
Isn't the Las Vegas official Trek con really expensive? I think STC will be there though.
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Old June 6 2014, 07:23 PM   #105
Ronald Held
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Re: Phase II Kickstarter

Expensive in an exhibitor sense? I did read that STC would be there and I thought it would be nice to see Phase II as well.
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