RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,959
Posts: 5,391,460
Members: 24,722
Currently online: 435
Newest member: Jadakiss

TrekToday headlines

Forbes Cast In Powers
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22

Dorn To Voice Firefly Character
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22

No ALS Ice Bucket For Saldana
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22

Free Star Trek Trexels Game
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22

New Trek-themed Bobble Heads
By: T'Bonz on Aug 21

IDW Publishing November Trek Comic
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Pegg/Wright Trilogy In The Works
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Star Trek: The Compendium Rebate Details
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Gold Key Archives Volume 2
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Takei Documentary Wins Award
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 6 2014, 06:20 AM   #61
AllStarEntprise
Fleet Captain
 
AllStarEntprise's Avatar
 
Re: Writing Women

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post

IMHO all female characters look great in standard Starfleet uniforms: Troi, Kira, Seven, T'Pol (not her altered S3 catsuits). It also makes you take them more seriously as characters, whilst still showing them to be women in great shape.

This should be the norm, unless of course the PTB decide to put a fit, hot man in a Seven-esque catsuit. Until then, put them all in uniform, please.
QFT
AllStarEntprise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 6 2014, 08:56 AM   #62
Bry_Sinclair
Commodore
 
Bry_Sinclair's Avatar
 
Location: Along the border of Talarian space
Re: Writing Women

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post

IMHO all female characters look great in standard Starfleet uniforms: Troi, Kira, Seven, T'Pol (not her altered S3 catsuits). It also makes you take them more seriously as characters, whilst still showing them to be women in great shape.

This should be the norm, unless of course the PTB decide to put a fit, hot man in a Seven-esque catsuit. Until then, put them all in uniform, please.
QFT
Cheers
__________________
Avatar: Captain Susanna Leijten, U.S.S. Silverfin NCC-4470, Border Service Third Cutter Squadron
Manip by: FltCpt. Bossco (STPMA)
Bry_Sinclair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 6 2014, 06:47 PM   #63
Whoa Nellie
Fleet Captain
 
Whoa Nellie's Avatar
 
Re: Writing Women

One of the things I loved about the Vash character was the way she completely outsmarts both Picard and Q.


Watch the episode Captain's Holiday – Vash outsmarts Picard. Vash, not Picard, was the one that realized who the Vorgons were and that they were the ones who originally stole the Tox Uthat. Picard was about to hand the Tox Uthat over to the bad guys. Vash stopped him.


In the episode Qpid, Vash was not intimidated by Q in the least and she completely derailed Q's little scenario by cozying up to Sir Guy and talking her way out of the execution. It was Picard's gallantly heroic, if somewhat sexist, insistence on saving his ladylove that gave Q the win. Q admitted he had no control over the Robin Hood scenario and that at noon the next day it would end. If Picard had left well enough alone Vash and Sir Guy would have had their little mock wedding and the game would be over. This was why Q looked absolutely panicked when Vash comes down the steps with Sir Guy. She had beaten Q at his own game.




In Vash we have a well written, intelligent and interesting female character.



Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie
__________________
Recipient of the 2006 Alara Rogers ASC Award for Best Author Overall.
"I personally like to think Picard and Vash had a very active sex life. I can't believe Picard just read Shakespeare up there in his room all those years." Patrick Stewart.
Whoa Nellie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 6 2014, 07:06 PM   #64
mos6507
Captain
 
mos6507's Avatar
 
Re: Writing Women

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
I think they're saying 'what's wrong with a sexy uniform design?'.
Feminism is a strange thing. It can sometimes be incredibly hypocritical depending on whether it's the bra-burning style of feminism or the Madonna brand of celebrating sluttiness and vanity.

What we have now with the defense of Rihanna's outfit and Miley Cyrus is the latter, in which case any criticism of the relatively tame 6 of 9 catsuit or miniskirts seem quaint and misguided.
__________________
Fem Trekz on Facebook
mos6507 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7 2014, 01:56 AM   #65
Nerys Myk
Fleet Admiral
 
Nerys Myk's Avatar
 
Location: House of Kang, now with ridges
Re: Writing Women

Shouldn't the miniskirt be quant?
__________________
The boring one, the one with Khan, the one where Spock returns, the one with whales, the dumb one, the last one, the one with Kirk, the one with the Borg, the stupid one, the bad one, the new one, the other one with Khan.
Nerys Myk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7 2014, 03:49 AM   #66
RunawayStarShip
Lieutenant Junior Grade
 
Re: Writing Women

mos6507 wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
I think they're saying 'what's wrong with a sexy uniform design?'.
Feminism is a strange thing. It can sometimes be incredibly hypocritical depending on whether it's the bra-burning style of feminism or the Madonna brand of celebrating sluttiness and vanity.
I don't think that this is a fair criticism. Feminism is just a general belief that all genders should be equal. Different people who identify themselves as feminists just have different ideas and opinions.

Heck, we're all Trekkies, and the Star Trek XI+ board (for example) is basically a warzone.
RunawayStarShip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7 2014, 04:29 AM   #67
Nightdiamond
Fleet Captain
 
Nightdiamond's Avatar
 
Location: California
Re: Writing Women

RunawayStarShip wrote: View Post
mos6507 wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
I think they're saying 'what's wrong with a sexy uniform design?'.
Feminism is a strange thing. It can sometimes be incredibly hypocritical depending on whether it's the bra-burning style of feminism or the Madonna brand of celebrating sluttiness and vanity.
I don't think that this is a fair criticism. Feminism is just a general belief that all genders should be equal. Different people who identify themselves as feminists just have different ideas and opinions.
Come to think of it, I do see two types of feminism stemming from the same source-- one is the 'stop objectifying women by making them sex objects', and the other is the 'I don't need a man's permission to express my sexuality' feminism.

I think the question that's being asked is, did Seven really need to be in that skin type catsuit that was obviously giving the male viewers something to look at? Or was it because the suit was functional and practical?

I think Counselor Troi pulled off the 'sexy uniform' nicely. Those green and blue dresses with the plunging neckline looked both casual and very sexy at the same time.

The NU Trek women's dress uniforms are very hot, with short skirts and yet have the sleek formal military look. But I think the producers knew that and did it on purpose.

They want it to be sexy and show skin, and have no problem with it, hence the "what wrong with putting women in sexy uniforms that show some skin?" attitude.


But if you really want to know what makes both types of feminists mad, ...look at the scene in STID where Dr. Marcus strips to her underwear in front of Kirk.

And even though it was required in the plot, noticed the frontal pose to make sure the cameras and audience gets a full view of everything
Nightdiamond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7 2014, 07:06 AM   #68
Bry_Sinclair
Commodore
 
Bry_Sinclair's Avatar
 
Location: Along the border of Talarian space
Re: Writing Women

RunawayStarShip wrote: View Post
Heck, we're all Trekkies, and the Star Trek XI+ board (for example) is basically a warzone.


Yes it's not a place to raise even the slightest criticism, unless you want a new one ripped. And NuTrek is a prime example of how not to write female characters.
__________________
Avatar: Captain Susanna Leijten, U.S.S. Silverfin NCC-4470, Border Service Third Cutter Squadron
Manip by: FltCpt. Bossco (STPMA)
Bry_Sinclair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7 2014, 07:25 AM   #69
Nerys Myk
Fleet Admiral
 
Nerys Myk's Avatar
 
Location: House of Kang, now with ridges
Re: Writing Women

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
RunawayStarShip wrote: View Post
Heck, we're all Trekkies, and the Star Trek XI+ board (for example) is basically a warzone.


Yes it's not a place to raise even the slightest criticism, unless you want a new one ripped. And NuTrek is a prime example of how not to write female characters.
I'm shocked to discover that Trek fans will vigorously defend a film they like!


I dunno, they might have done a better job in two movies that the previous five TV shows and ten films combined.
__________________
The boring one, the one with Khan, the one where Spock returns, the one with whales, the dumb one, the last one, the one with Kirk, the one with the Borg, the stupid one, the bad one, the new one, the other one with Khan.
Nerys Myk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7 2014, 02:17 PM   #70
Forbin
Admiral
 
Forbin's Avatar
 
Location: I said out, dammit!
Re: Writing Women

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
RunawayStarShip wrote: View Post
Heck, we're all Trekkies, and the Star Trek XI+ board (for example) is basically a warzone.


Yes it's not a place to raise even the slightest criticism, unless you want a new one ripped. And NuTrek is a prime example of how not to write female characters.
I'm shocked to discover that Trek fans will vigorously defend a film they like!


I dunno, they might have done a better job in two movies that the previous five TV shows and ten films combined.
Might have, but didn't.
Forbin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7 2014, 04:52 PM   #71
Nerys Myk
Fleet Admiral
 
Nerys Myk's Avatar
 
Location: House of Kang, now with ridges
Re: Writing Women

Forbin wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post


Yes it's not a place to raise even the slightest criticism, unless you want a new one ripped. And NuTrek is a prime example of how not to write female characters.
I'm shocked to discover that Trek fans will vigorously defend a film they like!


I dunno, they might have done a better job in two movies that the previous five TV shows and ten films combined.
Might have, but didn't.
It's close though. TOS and TNG put the series way behind.
__________________
The boring one, the one with Khan, the one where Spock returns, the one with whales, the dumb one, the last one, the one with Kirk, the one with the Borg, the stupid one, the bad one, the new one, the other one with Khan.
Nerys Myk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2014, 06:45 AM   #72
Destructor
Commodore
 
Destructor's Avatar
 
Location: Melbourne, VIC
Re: Writing Women

WillsBabe wrote: View Post
Destructor wrote: View Post
I agree that Tasha totally got a bad rap. *So* many of the problems with TNG would have been solved if she'd stayed on the cast.
This is interesting. What are the issues and how would they have been solved?
Basically, after Tasha died, the only two female roles were two different kinds of Doctor or 'carer', which is a stereotypically feminine role. Nowhere is this more obvious than in the stupid Q episode where the only two castmembers who had swordfighting training and experience were Gates and Marina, and they were given the role of 'smashing pots on guards heads'.

If Gene's original plan had continued (or Marina or Gates had left instead), Tasha would have A. Balanced out the male-heavy cast and B. given us a non-stereotypical female role. Which I consider two of the biggest problems with TNG.

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
Destructor wrote: View Post
Just as a sidebar, I'd like to think that TNG was coming from the perspective that tears of frustration weren't innately feminine.
This is ironic, but has anyone noticed Tasha is pretty muchthe only main character female that cried when she got frustrated?

All the others--Dax, Kira, Uhura, Crusher, B'elanna, Janeway, never do it as far I know (I think Kira might have) .

Tasha had a well rounded character, but a lot of fans can't stand her.
Lots of fans can't stand Troi. I think Tasha would have grown on us, given more time. I mean, her part in Yesterday's Enterprise is excellent. I think she needed more time to grow into the role.

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
IMHO all female characters look great in standard Starfleet uniforms: Troi, Kira, Seven, T'Pol (not her altered S3 catsuits). It also makes you take them more seriously as characters, whilst still showing them to be women in great shape.

This should be the norm, unless of course the PTB decide to put a fit, hot man in a Seven-esque catsuit. Until then, put them all in uniform, please.
Agreed. Seven looked awesome in her Starfleet Uniform- way cooler than the silver catsuit.

RunawayStarShip wrote: View Post
mos6507 wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
I think they're saying 'what's wrong with a sexy uniform design?'.
Feminism is a strange thing. It can sometimes be incredibly hypocritical depending on whether it's the bra-burning style of feminism or the Madonna brand of celebrating sluttiness and vanity.
I don't think that this is a fair criticism. Feminism is just a general belief that all genders should be equal. Different people who identify themselves as feminists just have different ideas and opinions.

Heck, we're all Trekkies, and the Star Trek XI+ board (for example) is basically a warzone.
Yes! Great analogy. There are many different 'feminisms' but they all branch from the idea that men and women should have equal rights. Even though Star Trek screws it up a lot in the execution, I think it's obvious that it basically 'believes' in this concept.
Destructor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2014, 11:46 PM   #73
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: Writing Women

RunawayStarShip wrote: View Post
I don't think that this is a fair criticism. Feminism is just a general belief that all genders should be equal.
I don't think that is accurate, what you just described is egalitarianism, feminism is the advocacy of females within a society.

Example.

For years women on college campuses have out-numbered men, yet feminists (as a group) do not push for programs and policies to increase male numbers in bring them in parity with the females.

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
RunawayStarShip wrote: View Post
Heck, we're all Trekkies, and the Star Trek XI+ board (for example) is basically a warzone.
Yes it's not a place to raise even the slightest criticism, unless you want a new one ripped.
The Trek Literature section might be worse, one of my first posting was a minor critique of then resent pro novels, oh my God you would have though I burned down the author's house.

I don't realize that in Trek Literature, current works (and their authors) were only to be praised and adored.


Last edited by T'Girl; June 14 2014 at 08:35 AM.
T'Girl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 14 2014, 07:01 PM   #74
Armored Saint
Fleet Captain
 
Armored Saint's Avatar
 
Location: Quebec City
Re: Writing Women

Destructor wrote: View Post
Basically, after Tasha died, the only two female roles were two different kinds of Doctor or 'carer', which is a stereotypically feminine role.
According to 1987 or 2014 criteria? Of course, today having a female doctor or psychologist isn't a bold exercise of female empowering, but I don't think female doctor and psychologist were so common on screen during the 80s. Of course, at large it remains in the traditionnal zone of the typical female role of taking care of the others, but it's not when baby-boomers (generation of both McFadden and Sirtis) were at University that women became in majority in North-American medecine faculties. Of course, there was already a lot of female doctor and psychologist in 1987, but it wasn't so obviously stereotypical.
Armored Saint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 19 2014, 12:36 AM   #75
Pauln6
Rear Admiral
 
Pauln6's Avatar
 
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
Re: Writing Women

Destructor wrote: View Post
Yes! Great analogy. There are many different 'feminisms' but they all branch from the idea that men and women should have equal rights. Even though Star Trek screws it up a lot in the execution, I think it's obvious that it basically 'believes' in this concept.
Yeah the principal problem with the execution is that it is so obvious that the default setting for so many writers is 'male'. You more often see female characters introduced as an adjunct of a male or because she has to be female (like Ensign Wildman). Seven of Nine would have been a man if Kim had left but they made her a woman when Kes was written out to keep the cast 'balanced'. Since when is 6 men and 3 women balanced?

Trek was making some gains by featuring women in more varied jobs but NuTrek screwed it up by ignoring two of the three recurring women instead of updating them and by leaving out trailblazing female characters like Number One and T'Pau in favour of a string of male characters. Weak.

Other shows like Farscape and NuBSG did a better job with women, featuring them in varied roles and independently of male characters more often than Trek. I was disappointed that NuBSG just converted previously male characters to women rather than updating the pre-existing ones though. A modern day Cassiopeia who was a mix of Vash and Enara would have been great.

Vash was really cool though. And Ro too.
__________________
Star Trek/Babylon 5/Alien crossover www.youtube.com/user/pauln6

Other Worlds Role Playing Game
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/produc...ducts_id=97631
Pauln6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:17 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.