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Old May 29 2014, 11:56 PM   #31
Vandervecken
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Re: Is the Holodeck Evil?

Timo wrote: View Post
I'm not sure I understand. Holodeck adventures are just interactive entertainment, something the most primitive home computers have been capable of producing since the 1980s. A computer program juggles multiple parameters to create responses that make it appear that people with personalities are interacting with you - and computers today can effortlessly pass the Turing test of sounding indistinguishable from a human in a given context. Some computer games exploit this, but few to the fullest, yet it's merely a matter of computing power, and that increases so fast that it's probably way past what's required for TNG or VOY holodrama plots the day past tomorrow if it isn't that today.

The further step of moving the action from a computer screen to a holodeck doesn't sound particularly impressive, either. It's just technology. The leap from no movies to movies was a huge one, for the first time superseding human acting with technology; further such steps won't be leaps in psychological terms. One day, somebody will invent a "forcefield" or a "hard light projector" or whatever; Trek only asks us to assume that this day comes a couple of hundred years from now, and even allows for aliens from outer space to introduce it to us if we are too stupid to invent it ourselves.

Once holographic projections can be made, there's no trick to "kissing" or "killing" them, any more than there would be some great objection to a movie character being kissed or killed instead of just standing around. There's no extra cost attached. It's all in the programming, and we have that today already.

Timo Saloniemi
But what about taste and smell? Somehow the holodeck reproduces those--and in exactly the right places and at the right moments.

But Timo, the issue here is that some of the holocharacters become true, independent, self-aware sentients, not just facsimiles; which we know they are, because we're in the third-person omniscient position and can see what the characters can't, including the authors' tone, which makes it plain that these are true sentients and not Turing-passing substitutes.
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Last edited by Vandervecken; May 30 2014 at 12:17 AM.
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Old May 30 2014, 09:11 AM   #32
Timo
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Re: Is the Holodeck Evil?

But what about taste and smell? Somehow the holodeck reproduces those--and in exactly the right places and at the right moments.
That I'd consider nuances irrelevant to the argument... It's just technology, and we have done much more wondrous things with technology already. It doesn't break any currently known laws of physics, either, like warp or transporters or phasers appear to do.

But Timo, the issue here is that some of the holocharacters become true, independent, self-aware sentients, not just facsimiles; which we know they are, because we're in the third-person omniscient position and can see what the characters can't, including the authors' tone, which makes it plain that these are true sentients and not Turing-passing substitutes.
Oh, I completely denounce the idea that Turing-pass would be distinguishable from sentience. Self-awareness is something you can Turing-fake just as well as any other property, and there's no way of telling whether something like that is fake or real, which IMHO simply means there's no distinction between the two in this case. We all simply Turing each other, and if a machine can do it, it's good enough to play a sentient holocharacter.

That is, a stupid Leisure Suit Larry program from 1986 is sentient until otherwise proven (and that will never happen) - it's just a very stupid sort of sentient. And mundane advances in computing will make Leisure Suit Larry XXVIII a pretty smart sort of sentient. It doesn't matter who is being Turinged: the flesh-and-blood co-characters, the audience, or the holographic sentience itself. It's still just a matter of appearances. And again, very mundane advances in technology will already give such good appearances that us poor humans never could tell the difference.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old June 4 2014, 12:58 AM   #33
Delta Vega
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Re: Is the Holodeck Evil?

Just caught ten minutes of a Voyager episode called "Thirty Days", in which Paris and Kim were indulging in a silly holodeck programme with twin female officers, in the style of Flash Gordon.

In my opinion, the script writers and the producers of the show should have been executed for foisting this shit on serious Star Trek fans, and by making me think such evil thoughts, I conclude that the Holodeck is in fact evil.
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Old June 4 2014, 01:21 AM   #34
Ho Ho Homeier
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Re: Is the Holodeck Evil?

The biggest problem I have with holodeck characters or the EMH and other examples (such as VOY: Flesh and Blood) becoming self-aware, is why doesn't the ship's computer seem to be self-aware?
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Old June 4 2014, 03:46 AM   #35
han solo
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Re: Is the Holodeck Evil?

to awnser your question yes the holodeck is evil ,pls close this thread
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Old June 4 2014, 12:06 PM   #36
Timo
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Re: Is the Holodeck Evil?

The biggest problem I have with holodeck characters or the EMH and other examples (such as VOY: Flesh and Blood) becoming self-aware, is why doesn't the ship's computer seem to be self-aware?
I don't see the problem. Self-awareness is something you demonstrate. If you see no point in demonstrating it, you won't be recognizable as self-aware, but that doesn't mean you aren't.

Or, more in line with the arguments from the previous page, when you demonstrate self-awareness, you manifest the potential, and the manifestation is the self-awareness by our current definition. When you don't demonstrate, you aren't self-aware by our standards, but you still have the potential, yours to command whenever needed.

Why would a complex and capable computer stoop all the way down to demonstrating self-awareness, i.e. the ability to chit-chat with humans? It's not an impressive feat or a useful trait, except perhaps when your job is to interact with humans...

...And there the computer of the E-D certainly excels. It answers questions the heroes don't have the sense to ask, it tells Data to stop babbling, it even opens doors at the dramatically correct moment. It just does all that with the panache of a seasoned butler, without making a fuss of itself.

Holodecks are different, because their very point is to make a fuss. So the computer makes one.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old June 4 2014, 12:18 PM   #37
Gov Kodos
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Re: Is the Holodeck Evil?

If that computer were self aware it should know what your coffee or tea is after the hundredth order.

Captain: Tea
Computer: Please specify...
Captain: Tea, the damned thing I order every goddamned morning, you bloody glorified abacus!
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Old June 4 2014, 05:26 PM   #38
Nightdiamond
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Re: Is the Holodeck Evil?

If a holodeck character is just following a set of IF-THEN rules, then it may mean it's all just smoke and mirrors.

A Voyager episode mentioned something about giving holo characters the ability to feel pain . That would mean that normally holo characters don't feel anything.

That might also mean their "emotional" reactions are just based on rules like - if subject is smiling at you, then smile back and laugh lightly'. Smoke and mirrors.


Re Moriarty- the computer may have played one big mind f*ck with the crew.

Geordi asks the computer to think of a opponent smart enough to outsmart Data. Not Sherlock Holmes, Data.

Possible theory-- The computer created a program that kept running outside the holo deck. Fed him data through the computers systems.

The Moriarty character "thinks" he's sentient because his program is just running outside the holo-deck and he's being given new information.

Notice that Moriarty stays the same character. He's ruthless and threatens to kill everyone unless he gets what he wants. He doesn't question himself or his morals.

He just plays the character the computer designed him to be.

Last edited by Nightdiamond; June 5 2014 at 01:44 AM.
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